Trying to understand the something from nothing belief... (bless, religion, devils)

[catman]

Originally Posted by old_cold

but,but, for something to get larger there has to be 'space' for it to get larger into!

No, not in this case. Area is literally made where there was none before. It is contrary to all our concepts of how things work. Therefore, the need for ibuprofin/Excedrin!

[TheEarthBeneathMe]

Originally Posted by LWI

I mean hey even the internet doesn't have a physicality. But we're all here right? Might as well be call typing in the spiritual world.

I just love this guys quotes .

[kenshi]

Originally Posted by old_cold

but,but, for something to get larger there has to be 'space' for it to get larger into!
I prefer Excedrin

If Earth got larger, it's surface area would increase even though the area didn't really come from anywhere. It's basically the same thing.

[Dusty Rhodes]

Trying to understand the something from nothing belief...

It really isn't that difficult, nor unusual, in the god-myth, the god-thing created something from nothing too. Most christian-types don't want to allow the atheists the use of a similar idea, except, in evolution, there was never a "nothing" ...."Matter can neither be created nor destroyed, it can be altered" is one of the laws of Physics. Matter, unlike the god-thingy myth, has always existed.

[jimhcom]

The laws of physics say it is impossible to create something from nothing.
You are therefore left with two possibilities.
1. That physical matter always existed in some form, which brings you back to the question of where it came from.
2. That physical matter in fact does not exist, and is an illusion created in order for us to play this game. Kind of like a very advanced video game.

[Shibumi]

Originally Posted by twiggy

You know with the "God" story you'll never know truly how it started because those who believe this story stop looking for an answer.

Such a good answer, and demonstrable with most every denial post they create, here they regularly trip and fall over their own claims.

If you go with science then you at least, in the future, have the chance to find out.

We've come a long way in understanding this creation process. We cure diseases some only prayed about curing years ago, one day I'm sure this too (how it all started) will no longer be a mystery explained by people with heaven and God. Just like anything else, science gives you the motivation to move forward with everything. To find real answers to everything. Right now we only use a small portion of our brains and understand just the tip of the iceberg. Maybe not in our life time but in the future your question will be answered.

Originally Posted by Ceece

Some people need to believe to feel good, others don't. I fall into the latter catagory. I really don't give a crap how it all started.

WEll stated. Some have to know, and will believe most anything, even the unbelievable. others are far more confident and sure of themselves, and don't need a father figurehead to constantly guide them though their entire lives.

Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo

I am somewhat more optimistic catman. I read the works of Hawking and listen to the talks of Krauss and although we are clearly a long way away from a full understanding... I am strongly heartened by the leaps we have taken.

Answers likely will not come in my life time, maybe not even in the life time of my own children... but all the signs are that they ARE coming and as a species we may have them one day.

It is nothing more than optimism and hope really, but I think it is a well founded hope.

All we have to do is look at the knowledge versus time curve. Nowhere does it ever dip downwards, where we know less with time, or have less confidence in the accumulations of science and knowledge. As to religion however, that curve (correct, demonstrable knowledge over time) is going down, always. Fact.

How can anyone dispute this?

Originally Posted by Dusty Rhodes

If christianity makes sense to you, you will probably not understand logic.

Nicely stated. And factual. "You must abandon all logic, oh yee who enter here!" Should be emblazened over every church doorway....

Originally Posted by kenshi

No, that'absolutely the wrong way to look at it. You're looking at it as the edge of a three-dimensional object, but I'm saying to look at it as a two-dimensional object that is finite but without an edge. If you were to travel continuously in one direction, you would never reach an end, but would instead pass where you started. It could be that the universe is like that, but with an extra dimension. You can think of it like the surface of a hypersphere, though it wouldn't necessarily be one.

Haven't some astro-physicists suggested there is, or may well be, a whole bunch of other dimensions, like 10 or 40 or whatever? That can help explain our existence, but we just are too dumb right now to grasp it. At least some are smart enough to theorize, but Christians can't or won't imagine anything except a wonderful magical fairy-tale world of instant creation just a few thousand years ago, and an always existing God made originally out of... nothing.

Originally Posted by LWI

... see how many atheists were wrong when you think of human history. But then to imagine that an original idea would have to come from someplace is when you start getting into the possible supernatural stuff.

You seem to be conveniently forgetting all the damage and ruined civilizations resulting from the spread of Catholicism etc. Vast damage and ruination.

Originally Posted by kenshi

If Earth got larger, it's surface area would increase even though the area didn't really come from anywhere. It's basically the same thing.

Only if it's density remained static. Does an omlette expand? Yep, by the expansion of the air trapped inside it. The earth may well be growing, as is the universe.

Originally Posted by jimhcom

The laws of physics say it is impossible to create something from nothing.
You are therefore left with two possibilities.
1. That physical matter always existed in some form, which brings you back to the question of where it came from.
2. That physical matter in fact does not exist, and is an illusion created in order for us to play this game. Kind of like a very advanced video game.

You also assume here that our own written laws are immutable and limited, or not expandable in special cases. Rather, I'll say that Einstein's ideas and later, Hawkins', have proved that the basic laws of nature only apply in the general case, and/or here on earth, not necessarily at the far-flung outer fringes of the expanding universe.

Don't assume God is humano-centric either. (you know; that somehow we're His ultimate Creation, rather than just a badly failed experiment in some long-drawn process) He may well prefer the beings He created over on the planet Glorgon, because they are far less self-destructive and egotistical than we have proven ourselves to be.

[kenshi]

Originally Posted by Shibumi

Haven't some astro-physicists suggested there is, or may well be, a whole bunch of other dimensions, like 10 or 40 or whatever? That can help explain our existence, but we just are too dumb right now to grasp it. At least some are smart enough to theorize, but Christians can't or won't imagine anything except a wonderful magical fairy-tale world of instant creation just a few thousand years ago, and an always existing God made originally out of... nothing.

M-theory hypothesizes 11 spatial dimensions and other theories hypothesize more spatial and time dimensions than the 4 we know, but none of them have any supporting evidence right now. The Large Hadron Collider may change that.

Only if it's density remained static. Does an omlette expand? Yep, by the expansion of the air trapped inside it. The earth may well be growing, as is the universe.

The surface area of a sphere is related only to its radius, not its density. If a bubble somehow grew inside the core of the planet, the surface area would increase and - assuming the tectonic plates didn't shift - everything on it would become further apart but you couldn't list any latitude and longitude as being the center of expansion or a point of new area. It's exactly the same with curved space, except there's an extra dimension.

[catman]

Originally Posted by Dusty Rhodes

[b]..."Matter can neither be created nor destroyed, it can be altered" is one of the laws of Physics. Matter, unlike the god-thingy myth, has always existed.

Just for the sake of discussion, I don't know that the laws of physics existed before the Big Bang.

[SoCalCroozer]

I believe human beings could have originally been genetically engineered from "aliens" or other creatures much more powerful, smarter, and technologically advanced than we are. Ala Zacharia Sitchin and his Annunaki theory. To me that stuff makes as much sense as anything else. But deep down I feel our brains hit a sort of cogintive brick wall when we think about a simple question......."who created god?". When you ask yourself that and really try to think about that.......its like your brain short circuits or you can't really get past that though to come up with an answer or really understand. It's like as magnificient as our brains are and as powerful as we are..........we just can't think about certain things. Our brains just don't allow us. I feel at times we are just higher thinking animals being harvested by other higher beings like we do to livestock and other living creatures. I mean that makes a lot of sense.

But then on the other hand you can't deny the beauty and amazing aspects of life, this planet and how vast and seemingly infinite space is. I mean the human mind can barely comprehend light years. And we are talking about planets and distances in space that are hundreds, thousdands of light years as if they are right around the corner. LMAO! Things like that really make me believe in a higher being, a loving force or energy or whatever that created life. Life is just too beautiful and too amazing. Here you have this amazing planet......take away humans and our violence and pollution and Planet Earth is one of the most amazing beautiful things that could ever be created. Nature, ecosystems etc. It's one big circle of life in an otherwise lonely, dark, and empty huge expanse of space and nothingness. You're telling me that all happened by chance? Yeah right. Then there has got to be hundreds of other planet earths out there if it was all random. we are not the only ones.

So in the end I don't care anymore. I think the bigger question is why are we destroying the one thing keeping us alive and the one thing that is so beautiful and amazing. Our Planet. If there is a god or whatever and we are supposed to learn some lesson while living on this amazing beautiful rock of a planet........he probably gave up hundreds of years ago on us ever learning that lesson.

But I think the human race being once genetically engineered by aliens and then long forgotten, left to fend for ourselves makes the most sense.

[chielgirl]

My answer is "I don't know and neither do you!"