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Old 06-08-2011, 08:35 PM
 
40,046 posts, read 26,730,521 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roxolan View Post
Life from non-life isn't solved yet. At some point chemical reactions produced a thing with a membrane to isolate itself from the outside, and a tendency to make copies of itself. I.e. a "living" creature. Random mutations + natural selection caused that original life form to become more and more complex, eventually producing the life forms we see today. (I am compressing a billion years into one sentence here.)

Thoughts, emotions etc. are emergent behaviors of the extremely complex (but entirely material) system that is a human body. They're what it "feels like" when some neuron chains in your brain are active while you have some chemicals in your blood and so on.
That's the (very) short of it.
You started out fine . . . but the minute you threw in the euphemism "emergent" AS IF it was a scientific explanation you went off the rails. Emergent is an observation of the appearance of something that we have "no idea where it came from or how." But if we use the euphemism . . . it seems like we have said something scientific to explain where consciousness came from . . . i.e.," It is an emergent characteristic!" Come on! This is high school philosophical reasoning.
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Old 06-08-2011, 08:47 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
pretty awesome philosophical work. The empathy thing with the laughing and walking away actually happened to me once... you always think: what sort fo douche-bag could do such a thing, and then you find them.
in that case it was an atheist, with Santaria believes and carrying some idol of some saint, so I guess a "spiritual" atheist that belived in ghosts(told me himself). life really is stranger than fiction
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Old 06-08-2011, 09:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by 007.5 View Post
How did such things as abstract thinking, love, empathy, compassion , reasoning, etc... ultimately come by way of atheistic Materialism such as rocks/dirt/hydrogen gas/planets, etc ???
I believe the abstract ideas of love, empathy, and compassion came about because of the existence of the opposite feelings. Yes, I understand those are abstract as well. However, one is not purely abstract and that is fear because humans have the ability to sense danger.

Families who use fear to control within have taught its members to fear each other. They also have to focus on danger outside the group. This is against their interest. They are their own worst enemy.

Families who do not use fear to control within have only outside danger to fear. Behaviors of hate, mistrust or control are not a part of life and are not passed on from generation to generation which is probably happening in the first type of family.

There is a book I read long ago called the Continuum Concept which detailed the lives of a tribe living in the Amazon. From what I remember, the tribe did not have abstract ideas of love, empathy, compassion or hate. They also did not use fear to control tribe members. There was no sign of "control" especially of children and they managed to show all the signs of love, empathy, compassion and discipline.
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Old 06-10-2011, 05:12 PM
 
Location: Brussels, Belgium
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By the way, it's not all empathy and love and compassion . Xenophobia for example also arose from evolution. A human who isn't part of your tribe doesn't carry your genes, and he's competing with you for the exact same resources. Better kill him if you have the chance. And don't trust him because he'll do the same to you.
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Old 06-11-2011, 04:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roxolan View Post
By the way, it's not all empathy and love and compassion . Xenophobia for example also arose from evolution. A human who isn't part of your tribe doesn't carry your genes, and he's competing with you for the exact same resources. Better kill him if you have the chance. And don't trust him because he'll do the same to you.
Perhaps but sometimes it is possible to compete with members of the same tribe. Not everyone can live in the hut by the beach.
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Old 06-20-2011, 12:38 PM
 
Location: NC, USA
7,088 posts, read 13,041,988 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 007.5 View Post
How did such things as abstract thinking, love, empathy, compassion , reasoning, etc... ultimately come by way of atheistic Materialism such as rocks/dirt/hydrogen gas/planets, etc ???
Ah yes!!! Living proof that Sophistry is alive and well.
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Old 06-26-2011, 02:43 AM
 
1,022 posts, read 11,342,384 times
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
As long as atheists keep making the same Moderator cut: delete statements about materialism and instead take the time and effort to pursue it diligently (as Arequipa did) until they recognize the inherent contradictions in the philosophy. But most of you are not interested in any serious answers anyway.
MysticPhd, I'm not Atheist but will You be patient enough for Me to reflect the answer and give it a go? I am never opposed to taking any side and temporarily adopting it as My own for the sake of deeper reflection and understanding.

My language will be kept as simple as possible. (I do this for many reasons but mainly to make sure My thoughts are My own, as well as an inward challenge to be freed of following another's trail, inherently laden with a predictable ultimate, conclusive result if followed to the extreme.)

I understand what You are speaking of I think...that everything must start from an original source much like an Artist ( source) and painting (result). The painting is a reflection of the source (Artist ). Or idea and manifestion, cause and result/effect.

Or say You create a cup...cup is creation. Now by studying the cup can it reveal everything about You the creator? No. There are very basic compositional elements reflective of Your nature...(its physicality of molecular structure and those laws governing that cup retaining its shape, follow the same rules [molecular] governing Your flesh and a law which maintain Your body generally shape called human) as well as something of Your mind by assessing the design of the cup...but study of the cup will never reveal Your Totality as a Human being whose existence lies in another Kingdom.

My challenge is to show there IS no source? Even if that was true, our makeup and world follow the rules of source, so to prove another set of rules are in play would be most difficult.

Or is it that the source must have materiality... because if true, then what is to be prevented from stating that source is material symbolically ( a body) and the question is what would define the "mind" of such a source. From That perspective, then Source is material ( its symbolic body )...and it would be up to science or philosophy to discover the "mind" of Source. In other words, what determines materiality is its relationship with something else (within itself). To make it simple, a body mind construct... external internal construct.

And why could I propose such a thing? Because we don't say, that body over there did this... we call, and assume, the union of that mind and body another name... called human. But we interact with that human through the body. So what I am saying is, on a much grander scale, Source is the body, Source has a mind which has yet to be named, and the union of Source and it's mind would have another name reflecting the conceptual word: human, that is, body + mind = human.

From Our placement in the hierarchy of kingdoms (molecular, plant, animal, human), Source appears as Completion of itself but BECAUSE it doesn't belong to Our Kingdom of human, then we would have to know the continued hierarchical branch AFTER human; that is know (if possible) Source's Kingdom, which construct may be something else entirely?

So unless we had the ability to leave the Human Kingdom, thereby accessing other levels of orderly consciousness or appearances into the Kingdom of "Source"...We could not conclusively state that Source is indeed "Source" from a Human perspective of meaning. That would be, where I would begin I think...(not sure I'm thinking with a full deck, been a long day but wanted to contribute a thought to be considered.)

But to bring the question back within human experience...

For example, We can agree that a pregnant woman's nutrition will more than likely affect the offspring carried, whether its resultant mind and or body. Meaning material consumed or lack thereof will more than likely affect the offspring's ability to navigate its environment, once born, in a material progression of maturity.

(My days will be intense and time unpredictable but I think I can reflect on the question without being triggered. It might take up to a week for Me to squeeze in time, but I enjoy working the logical side of My brain to balance the creative side.)

If there is a weakness to the philosophy now, would that guarentee it will always have this weakness? Philosophies, if healthy will adapt to new information of present times.

I won't have a problem stating I could not discover an answer, if true but I'm willing to take the challenge. (Maybe materialism included concepts that implied or took for granted intangibles as qualifiers, for material as well? Not sure but I'm willing to take a look.)

Last edited by KnightShadow; 06-26-2011 at 04:07 AM..
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Old 06-26-2011, 10:28 PM
 
1,022 posts, read 11,342,384 times
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MysticPhd,

I've thought more about this and have decided to remain with this basic idea...

"In other words, what determines materiality is its relationship with something else (within itself). To make it simple, a body mind construct... external internal construct."

That materiality is the external "substance" that is equated with the funtionality of material (body) to that particular level of Kingdom...(molecular through human as a conceptual example).

That it is the give and take action or relationship (unity) between the symbolic body and "mind" (or law governing that existence) which makes it identifiable consistently, lending integrity as viable.

Take for instance the human model...for mind and body to unite they both interact through a materiality called the brain. For the mind to function well, the body (material) as well as the brain must be relatively healthy. (Will type as I think).

Now we hold two magnets. We observe the conditions under which they attract and repel. Using this observation, we notice in life this same phenomena of experiences...like tends to attract like. hmmm...so going back to mind and body with the brain as a center of connection...

The mind is not repulsed by the brain so there must be some element within the mind that harmonizes with the material brain...or within the materiality of brain is an element that reflects the composition of mind, allowing both mind (invisible) and brain (visible) to interact.

In other words, there must be elements which disallow repulsion within the movement needed for a relationship of unity between the mind and brain to take place. Therefore all things must contain "symbolic" materiality even in mind itself for it to be itself.

If there was a diagram ... imagine two overlapping circles. One circle represent brain and the other circle labeled mind. The part in common (overlapping) with both is composed of elements found in both. These elements would prevent repulsion. So within the brain there must be present, elements of similarity in both mind and body to allow a relationship.

It is Material (meaning it doesn't have an antagonistic agenda outside of fulfilling its purpose) that creates the environment for sustaining existence (food), experiences and growth to take place. ( example, womb is an environment, and once born, the outer world or where you do your living, is a material environment.) The law of attraction gives stability to these environs and can be observe in such environments, replica of ongoing material events of activity or function, present in all Kingdoms. I will then use this law to explain materialism as well.

Hmmm to go further though I should soon stop...

the positive and negative charges enter that relationship of attraction... so whether the symbolic material element of function, of the mind is positively charged, or vice versa, interacting with pulses of attraction with that particular brain (meaning a mind cannot interact with just any brain but the brain present at birth).... both positive and negative must be composed of similar materiality (a component that acts as body, even symbolically) for attraction to take place... attraction of give and take between something appearing invisible (mind) with something visible (brain).

Thus materiality is the basis for all things.

Other examples can be cited but this is enough to allow You to respond. In either case I must admit I've enjoyed participating in this challenge.

I want to put as many ideas out as possible since I am not guaranteed having time for continued participation due to real life situations and responsibilities.

I hope you have the time to respond.

Last edited by KnightShadow; 06-26-2011 at 11:56 PM..
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