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Old 06-12-2011, 02:57 PM
 
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The rise of the new agnostics. - By Ron Rosenbaum - Slate Magazine
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Old 06-15-2011, 12:19 AM
 
Location: Metromess
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It has a very poor section on atheism, which is ONLY the lack of belief in a god. Most agnostics are by definition atheists.
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Old 06-16-2011, 10:36 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catman View Post
It has a very poor section on atheism, which is ONLY the lack of belief in a god. Most agnostics are by definition atheists.

I agree. While it was a good article it badly needed someone to put the atheist (if not New atheist) side because the article's accusations of Faithlike atheist certainties sounded worryingly like the false accusations that theists throw at atheism in trying to make a back - handed case for theism by discrediting atheism. As I said to our excellent, well informed and reasonable Theist friend Thom R (so none of that 'calling out' stuff, eh?) the only reason we atheists bang on about the scientific method is because theism puts so much effort into discrediting it.

Atheism is quite happy - indeed prefers - to be agnostic about what is yet unanswered and - yes. does expect science to provide answers because so far it has been science that has done it and theism has done nothing much but been shown to be wrong. So time to give science a bit of credit eh?

Until then being agnostic is merely saying 'we don't know - yet' and what we don't know we shouldn't believe and when you don't believe in something that is no more than an atheist is doing.

Anyone calling themselves an agnostic should get that basic bit of logic in their head before they start writing articles. While they may then take issue with the stridency of some atheists (I do myself) the rational basis for atheism should not come into question and it is agnostics who should be considering why in the name of reason they cannot call themselves atheists rather than atheists being asked why, in the name of reason should not be calling themselves agnostics. We are agnostic atheists.

Read, mark and learn

Agnosticism - knowledge position - 'I do not know'.

Atheism - belief - position - 'Therefore I logically cannot believe until I do know'.
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Old 06-16-2011, 11:56 AM
 
8,468 posts, read 13,646,023 times
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Terrible article. I stopped reading when I got to this part.

Faith-based atheism? Yes, alas. Atheists display a credulous and childlike faith, worship a certainty as yet unsupported by evidence—the certainty that they can or will be able to explain how and why the universe came into existence.

Is believing that you can eventually explain something childlike? I'll be sure to tell that to all the scientists I meet.
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Old 06-16-2011, 02:17 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,945 posts, read 4,739,597 times
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There is no such thing as a new agnostic.
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Old 06-16-2011, 02:48 PM
 
2,031 posts, read 2,409,686 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catman View Post
It has a very poor section on atheism, which is ONLY the lack of belief in a god. Most agnostics are by definition atheists.
Yep.

I'm about as agnostic regarding deities as I am about leprechauns. Yet when have you heard a self-described agnostic ever voice any dispute with the idea that leprechauns don't exist?

Me: "Leprechauns? What a silly idea!"
Agnostic: [no comment]

Me: "Apollo? Pffft!"
Agnostic: [no comment]

Me: "God? Oh, please..."
Agnostic: "How dare you have the hubris to make such an affirmative claim! You can't possibly know that! Admit it! Admit it now! You don't really know! You can't know! No one can!"

The self-described agnostic is emotionally invested in the possibility of a deity, which is why he/she objects vociferously to the rejection of the idea of, for example, God, while not caring one whit when other fantastic beliefs are blithely discarded.
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Old 06-18-2011, 04:29 AM
 
39,038 posts, read 10,825,389 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DennyCrane View Post
Terrible article. I stopped reading when I got to this part.

Faith-based atheism? Yes, alas. Atheists display a credulous and childlike faith, worship a certainty as yet unsupported by evidence—the certainty that they can or will be able to explain how and why the universe came into existence.

Is believing that you can eventually explain something childlike? I'll be sure to tell that to all the scientists I meet.
Yeh, ok. It was a terrible article.
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Old 06-18-2011, 06:37 PM
 
Location: Space Coast
1,988 posts, read 4,632,183 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyageur View Post
Yep.

I'm about as agnostic regarding deities as I am about leprechauns. Yet when have you heard a self-described agnostic ever voice any dispute with the idea that leprechauns don't exist?

Me: "Leprechauns? What a silly idea!"
Agnostic: [no comment]

Me: "Apollo? Pffft!"
Agnostic: [no comment]

Me: "God? Oh, please..."
Agnostic: "How dare you have the hubris to make such an affirmative claim! You can't possibly know that! Admit it! Admit it now! You don't really know! You can't know! No one can!"

The self-described agnostic is emotionally invested in the possibility of a deity, which is why he/she objects vociferously to the rejection of the idea of, for example, God, while not caring one whit when other fantastic beliefs are blithely discarded.
That might be true of some agnostics, but not *this* agnostic.

someone: "Unicorns? that's silly."
me: "Well, it's true that there is no evidence to support the existence of a unicorn. I'm not saying for sure that they don't exist because it's not possible to disprove it, but at this point in time we have no evidence that they do."

someone: "God? Oh, please..."
me: "Eh, I'm not aware of any evidence to support the existence of a god. I'm not saying for sure that one (or more) doesn't exist because it's not possible to disprove it, but at this point in time we have no evidence that one does."

See? I have no emotional investment in either.
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Old 09-04-2011, 08:16 AM
 
Location: On the "Left Coast", somewhere in "the Land of Fruits & Nuts"
8,367 posts, read 8,587,339 times
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I agree with the article, that atheists and agnostics are very different, although unfortunately they just get lumped in together, usually as simply the opposite of "believers". When in reality, most atheists are IMHO just another kind of narcissistic, my-way-or-the-highway "fundamentalist", usually trying to shout down any disagreement with both the "believers" and the agnostics. The "Atheists" may prattle on about "reason", and science, etc., but substitute the "bible" or "Jee-zus", and their arguments are just as dogmatic and really little different than those of any "bible-thumper".

Actually, one doesn't have to look any further than this forum (Atheism and Agnosticism), where the reality is that there's very little mention of agnosticism and the great majority of "discussions" are just the same 'ol cast of characters always browbeating each other over "Atheism" (aka, "it's all about ME!").
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Old 09-04-2011, 08:23 AM
 
39,038 posts, read 10,825,389 times
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I'm afraid you show little understanding of atheism and its relation with agnosticism or what atheism is. I'd be willing to explain it to you but I wonder if you'd even be willing to listen or would just prefer to adhere to these wretchedly biased misrepresentations of it.
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