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Old 06-15-2011, 05:29 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,282,434 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radrook View Post
Notice how atheists and other anti-religionists consider the constant perpetuation of the old fire-and-brimstone idea useful to their anti-religion cause! These people know that isn't the official doctrine of the Catholic Church and of most mainline Protestant churches any longer but make like they don't know in order malign. Nothing strange since misrepresentation in the name of anti-religion is an acceptable tactic for them.
It seems it is you that is engaged in misrepresentation as the OP did not mention either of the religions you did. Clearly he is targeting his OP solely at the religions that still DO perpetuate such an idea. Pointing out the ones that do not in no way negates his point therefore. You are essentially engaged in attacking a point the OP never even espoused. If someone says "X does this and it is bad" you do not negate their point... but in fact run away from it... if you reply "but you know Y doesn't do that."

The fact is many denominations of Christianity, and much of Islam, and so on still do perpetuate this idea and the entire idea appears to be a canard to scare people into thinking there is a god... since the people perpetuating the idea have no actual evidence, argument, data or reasons to suggest there IS such an entity.

And we know all too often, when someone is trying to sell an unsubstantiated idea (read: lie) that going for the emotions of the "mark" is a common tactic and the concept of hell appears to be no different.
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Old 06-15-2011, 06:41 AM
 
Location: Syracuse
10 posts, read 9,579 times
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Now that we have cleared the air that the God of the bible does not burn people in hell, we can move to the issue of "belief". One who believes in God has had physical or some other experiential evidence to convince him/her that God exists. It follows that until non-believers find such evidence they will continue to argue God does not exist. However, we will recall Jesus said to Thomas, "Blessed are those who have not seen, and yet believe." With this statement Jesus elevates our minds to the truth that our relationship with God is spiritual, which calls upon us to first believe in God, then through faith search for the spiritual evidence to justify our belief. The difficulty non-believers have is that they will not believe in God, and as result fail to find the evidence they seek.
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Old 06-15-2011, 07:33 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,282,434 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benaidoo View Post
One who believes in God has had physical or some other experiential evidence to convince him/her that God exists. It follows that until non-believers find such evidence they will continue to argue God does not exist.
This is a pretty meaningless thing to say. It really is little more than white noise. What exactly does it mean to say something like this? People who do not believe X just have not been shown the evidence for X yet. This is true of everything, not just god. There is no reason to believe something if people are consistently unable to give you ANY support for that something. You really are saying nothing but saying it using a 20 word sentence.

What of the people locked in asylums who think they are Napoleon reincarnated? Does it make any sense, or say anything useful, to say “One who believes they are Napoleon reincarnated has had physical or some other experiential evidence to convince him/her that they are so. It follows….”

The world is FULL of claims being made by a multitude of people. It is impossible to lend credence to, or independently verify them all. The only workable approach therefore is to say that if an idea comes out of someones mouth and there is literally no argument… no evidence…. No data…. No reasons… that lend that idea even a modicum of credence or substantiation then you should firstly dismiss that idea entirely (that asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence) and secondly resist the use of that idea in our halls of power, education and science. This... thankfully... is very workable as it applies to the vast majority of weird ideas people come up with most of the time, from Gods to Homeopathy to Astrology to going asleep and poncing around on "Astral Planes" as some users of this forum think they do.

GIVEN that you can not offer a shred of an iota of argument, evidence, data or reasons for the existence of a god entity therefore, we dismiss the idea and resist its use in politics, education and science. If a person wants to continue believing it in their own time however, then let them at it I say.

And note how all the people on these forums selling weird ideas like Homeopathy, Astrology and going asleep and poncing around on "Astral Planes".... all come out with the same "point" you just did.... that the only reason people do not believe their kooky ideas is that they have not seen the evidence yet. Consistently all the people touting that canard.... never seem to get around to actually presenting a shred of it. Ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by benaidoo View Post
"Blessed are those who have not seen, and yet believe." With this statement Jesus elevates our minds to the truth that our relationship with God is spiritual
I am glad you think the intent behind such words is lofty and divine. I however see them as a total canard. Asking someone to believe despite a complete void of evidence to me is just saying “Look I want to sell you an idea….. I have literally nothing to support said idea….. so how about I say something that will make you feel special if you just accept that idea by fiat all the same?”

It is just a trick. You want to sell an unsubstantiated idea (read: a lie) then the first port of call for any charlatan is to play on their emotions. Either make them feel bad (or in the case of the topic of THIS thread scared. Why derail and go entirely off topic after all.) if they do not accept it…. Or make them feel good if they do (such as calling people who accept kooky ideas for no reason “blessed”)…. Or both. Playing on the emotions of the “mark” would be Charlatan 101 should a Charlatan course exist.
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Old 06-15-2011, 09:40 AM
 
8,468 posts, read 13,653,807 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radrook View Post
It is truly a pity since a discussion with such individuals doesn't get anywhere because any evidence is either ignored or maligned and if they feel cornered there is always ridicule to fall back on.
This is especially funny coming from someone who believes in something for which there is no evidence. If I'm guilty of ignoring evidence, then what does it say about the person who doesn't even have any on which to base his belief?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
It seems it is you that is engaged in misrepresentation as the OP did not mention either of the religions you did. Clearly he is targeting his OP solely at the religions that still DO perpetuate such an idea. Pointing out the ones that do not in no way negates his point therefore. You are essentially engaged in attacking a point the OP never even espoused. If someone says "X does this and it is bad" you do not negate their point... but in fact run away from it... if you reply "but you know Y doesn't do that."
Thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by benaidoo View Post
One who believes in God has had physical or some other experiential evidence to convince him/her that God exists. It follows that until non-believers find such evidence they will continue to argue God does not exist. However, we will recall Jesus said to Thomas, "Blessed are those who have not seen, and yet believe." With this statement Jesus elevates our minds to the truth that our relationship with God is spiritual, which calls upon us to first believe in God, then through faith search for the spiritual evidence to justify our belief. The difficulty non-believers have is that they will not believe in God, and as result fail to find the evidence they seek.
So you have to believe in something in order to find evidence of it? LOL. The next time I go to my doctor, I'll tell him I have a tumor. And then I'll tell him that he first needs to believe I have a tumor in order to find evidence of it and that if he doesn't believe, he won't find evidence of it. How do you think he'll react? Just think where humans would be if discoveries depending on believing in them. I guess Columbus had to believe in America before he found it and if he hadn't believed in, then he would've kept sailing and never discovered it.
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Old 06-15-2011, 09:43 AM
 
Location: USA
15,906 posts, read 8,175,977 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clintone View Post
The belief that nonbelievers automatically go to hell is potentially damaging. It is fine if someone believes nonbelievers automatically go to hell, but the more someone lets this belief interfere with the real world, the more damaging the belief becomes.

For those who pay lip service to the belief in hell but never truly do believe it, it may be "fine". But for anyone who DOES believe it, it is never fine. It will warp their own sense of well-being, and/ or it will warp the way they view "unbelievers". It is damaging, period.
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Old 06-15-2011, 10:57 AM
 
2,726 posts, read 4,515,889 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benaidoo View Post
If you don't believe in God why should you be bothered by someone saying you'll burn in hell. Not believing in God presupposes that God doesn't exist, and if God doesn't exist how could he cause you to burn in hell? Only when you believe God exists would you be worried by someone threatening you with hell fire. But as you argue, if you believe in God you'll not burn in hell. So you see the argument is counterintuitive. Truth of the matter is God forces nobody to believe in him, because he knows forced love cannot endure.
Ha! Most threads on C-D are about trying to understand other people. It complicates things doesn't it?
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Old 06-15-2011, 11:02 AM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
13,143 posts, read 19,204,425 times
Reputation: 14007
Quote:
Originally Posted by DennyCrane View Post
Terrorism is all about instilling fear in people in order to further your own agenda. For example, you threaten to bomb their cities unless they leave your country. That fear, if strong enough, motivates them do as you ask. So if someone is told "you must believe in God or else you'll burn in hell", isn't that also instilling fear in them? And if so, doesn't that essentially make you a terrorist?
Naw, there's a big difference between: "belive now or I'm going to behead you" and "believe now or god will burn you for eternity after you die." Belivers aren't terrorists, they are just self-absorbed.

It's like me saying you all are deraged and inferior because your Leprochauns don't talk to you like they do to me.

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Old 06-15-2011, 11:24 AM
 
8,468 posts, read 13,653,807 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
Naw, there's a big difference between: "belive now or I'm going to behead you" and "believe now or god will burn you for eternity after you die." Belivers aren't terrorists, they are just self-absorbed.
If they're going around trying to scare people into believing something, then that gives them something in common with terrorists. Then again, I could say George Bush is guilty of the same thing. When people asked him for proof that Iraq had WMDs, he kept saying the proof could come in the form of a mushroom cloud. Notice how he used fear to get people to support his illegal war?
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Old 06-15-2011, 11:24 AM
 
Location: USA
15,906 posts, read 8,175,977 times
Reputation: 2103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango
It's like me saying you all are deraged and inferior because your Leprochauns don't talk to you like they do to me.
You have a TALKING Leprochaun? I'm so jealous. Mine never says anything.
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Old 06-15-2011, 03:09 PM
 
16,300 posts, read 24,969,718 times
Reputation: 8282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
You have a TALKING Leprochaun? I'm so jealous. Mine never says anything.
Mine keeps drinking my ale, I'll trade with ya
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