U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Atheism and Agnosticism
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 06-15-2011, 07:49 PM
 
Location: USA
15,906 posts, read 8,177,909 times
Reputation: 2103

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clintone View Post
Also, you are right. A belief in hell is probably damaging, but I don't think it's necessarily too damaging.

You apparently added this after I had already begun posting to you, but I want to respond to it.

First, if you've never believed in hell, you have no first hand experience in the amount of damage it can do. I do, as do many other former hell-believers ... and I assure you that it can be extremely damaging to one's mental health.

Secondly, I have seen the way a belief in hell warps the way some hell-believers see non-believers even in this day and age, and it ain't pretty. In history, there have been instances of hell-believers coming to the conclusion that since non-believers were going to roast in the fires of hell for eternity anyway, might as well get a head start and roast them while they're alive. If that's not warped, I don't know what is.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-15-2011, 08:48 PM
 
Location: USA
15,906 posts, read 8,177,909 times
Reputation: 2103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clintone View Post
I'd like to apoligize again for what I wrote earlier. I exploded. I grew up having essentially zero social skills, frequently wierding people out when I talked to them, until I joined into this community service group which was almost entirely a religious organization. It was because of them that I was able to learn how to talk to people better, and I never forgot that. I've been reading too many of these forums, and I tend to get angry at things that even remotely suggest one belief is better than another, even if a given belief or lack of it is better, because when I first joined that group, it was extremely akward being agnostic and thinking that a belief in religion made no sense, around people so devout, but it got very easy over time.
Given your experience, your response is perfectly understandable. No need at all to apologize ... and I'm really glad you found a group of people that were so helpful to you.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-15-2011, 08:54 PM
 
Location: Missouri, USA
4,375 posts, read 2,981,848 times
Reputation: 2034
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
You apparently added this after I had already begun posting to you, but I want to respond to it.

First, if you've never believed in hell, you have no first hand experience in the amount of damage it can do. I do, as do many other former hell-believers ... and I assure you that it can be extremely damaging to one's mental health.

Secondly, I have seen the way a belief in hell warps the way some hell-believers see non-believers even in this day and age, and it ain't pretty. In history, there have been instances of hell-believers coming to the conclusion that since non-believers were going to roast in the fires of hell for eternity anyway, might as well get a head start and roast them while they're alive. If that's not warped, I don't know what is.
I'd like to apoligize again for what I wrote earlier. I exploded. I grew up having essentially zero social skills, frequently wierding people out when I talked to them, until I joined into this community service group which was almost entirely a religious organization. It was because of them that I was able to learn how to talk to people better, and I never forgot that. I've been reading too many of these forums, and I tend to get angry at things that even remotely suggest one belief is better than another, even if a given belief or lack of it is better, because when I first joined that group, it was extremely akward being agnostic and thinking that a belief in religion made no sense, around people so devout, but it got very easy over time.

You would probably know what a belief in hell does to people better than I do. I've never once believed in hell. No one I've lived with for extended periods has believed in hell.

I do remember someone named Brother Jeb, who would come to my college and talk about how essentially everyone was going to hell, how women were meant not to work, how fraternities were immoral and sororities were filled with prostitutes. I would not have liked to be him.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-16-2011, 12:44 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,283,771 times
Reputation: 2973
Quote:
Originally Posted by benaidoo View Post
Nozzferrahhtoo, in so many words you're saying you need evidence to believe God exists. So when I say until you find the evidence you will not believe God exists; am I saying something different from what you've said?
No but what I am pointing out is that what you are saying is so basic and obvious that you are essentially saying nothing at all, but using a lot of words to do so. Certainly nothing of use.

There is no reason to believe ANYTHING unless there is good reasons or evidence given to you. Not just god.

The tone of your posts however, and the implication some could draw from reading them whether erroneously or not, is that we should give people who think there is a god some benefit of the doubt.... that we somehow should assume that they HAVE seen or possess some evidence that we are just yet to see and we should leave them well alone and sit back in the hope they deign to share it with us some day. Your quote of "Trust but verify" seems to cement the idea that that is indeed the implication of your posts.

It is that implication, intended or otherwise on your part, that I am replying to. I see no reason to think such believers HAVE any such evidence that they have seen and the rest of us have not. None at all. So any posts that seem, intended or otherwise, to assume that it is the believer that is in the right and the non-beliver that has some lack that they might be lucky enough to have rectified later.... I will respond to and resist with the full range of my responses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by benaidoo View Post
Just as a scientist needs to believe something exists, or the possibility that it exists before starting his research work; otherwise what is he searching for.
Bad comparison because scientists, unlike people who have just pulled the god idea out of thin air, do not just go looking for any old thing that MIGHT exist. They go looking for things that there is strong evidential and mathematical reasons to think SHOULD exist. The answer to "what is (s)he searching for" (s added by me to your quote) is (s)he is searching for what other science has implied is likely to be there. In fact most of the verification of Science Theory is based on verifying predictions made by previous science.

There is... to my knowledge.... no good reason to even think there might be a god, let alone to embark on attempting to find it and verify it. If you are aware of any do feel free to adumbrate them for me.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-16-2011, 12:47 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,283,771 times
Reputation: 2973
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clintone View Post
Most religious people I've met don't look unhappy. They look like they have an extended family of sorts in the church, and I don't want to break them away from that.
So do people who... for a random example.... go to football games wearing the same team strips.

The sense of community you describe is just as attainable in the real world without making up lies and fairy tales as it is within the confines of church. It is also attainable without much of the metaphysics and harm and other baggage that comes along with religions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clintone View Post
Also, you are right. A belief in hell is probably damaging, but I don't think it's necessarily too damaging.
I think you underestimate how damaging it can be. Especially when used as a tool to incite hatred and violence towards others. Sometimes it does not even have to be used as a tool for that, it just happens on it's own.

Imagine for example if you walked into a room and found your daughter being tortured and raped. Your reaction is likely to be swift and is unlikely to be limited to the proportions required simply to prevent further rape and torture. You are likely to react disproportionately in order to make sure the perpetrator us unlikely… or even unable… to do such things again.

Yet the concept many have of hell essentially leave a nice afternoon of rape and torture seem like a welcome break.

So imagine how the believer reacts to the unbeliever, the heathen or the purveyor of false gods. One no longer has to specifically call for violence against another person or people. One must simply instill in the heads that the very existence of such a person or people, and their words, are a threat to the eternal souls of you and/or your loved ones. Violence and/or Hatred can then just come about by themselves without you being seen to specifically call for it.

If you would react swiftly and disproportionately to a simple rape… imagine the potential for reaction to the threat on the eternal unending tormented soul of your dearest loved ones. This is what is scarey about the type of extremist cutting the heads off the infidels on camera to broadcast to the west. It is easy, and comforting, to dismiss their actions as those of mad men. However when you explore it you find that those actions are very sane and reasonable.... given the context of what they believe while doing them.... and the threat that the infidel poses to the eternal souls of their loved ones, children, wives, family, friends and more. If I genuinely believed a type of person in this world could put at risk the eternal tormented soul of those I love dearest... Id likely start cutting off a few heads too.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-16-2011, 09:14 AM
 
Location: Missouri, USA
4,375 posts, read 2,981,848 times
Reputation: 2034
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
So do people who... for a random example.... go to football games wearing the same team strips.

The sense of community you describe is just as attainable in the real world without making up lies and fairy tales as it is within the confines of church. It is also attainable without much of the metaphysics and harm and other baggage that comes along with religions.



I think you underestimate how damaging it can be. Especially when used as a tool to incite hatred and violence towards others. Sometimes it does not even have to be used as a tool for that, it just happens on it's own.

Imagine for example if you walked into a room and found your daughter being tortured and raped. Your reaction is likely to be swift and is unlikely to be limited to the proportions required simply to prevent further rape and torture. You are likely to react disproportionately in order to make sure the perpetrator us unlikely… or even unable… to do such things again.

Yet the concept many have of hell essentially leave a nice afternoon of rape and torture seem like a welcome break.

So imagine how the believer reacts to the unbeliever, the heathen or the purveyor of false gods. One no longer has to specifically call for violence against another person or people. One must simply instill in the heads that the very existence of such a person or people, and their words, are a threat to the eternal souls of you and/or your loved ones. Violence and/or Hatred can then just come about by themselves without you being seen to specifically call for it.

If you would react swiftly and disproportionately to a simple rape… imagine the potential for reaction to the threat on the eternal unending tormented soul of your dearest loved ones. This is what is scarey about the type of extremist cutting the heads off the infidels on camera to broadcast to the west. It is easy, and comforting, to dismiss their actions as those of mad men. However when you explore it you find that those actions are very sane and reasonable.... given the context of what they believe while doing them.... and the threat that the infidel poses to the eternal souls of their loved ones, children, wives, family, friends and more. If I genuinely believed a type of person in this world could put at risk the eternal tormented soul of those I love dearest... Id likely start cutting off a few heads too.
The sense of community you described is attainable in the real world, but as far as I've seen, in happens more often in religious groups.

Religion can be very dangerous, but much of the time it isn't.

Most historical examples of attrocities attributed to religion in the past few hundred years in the United States, have had other reasons behind them as well which were likely a much greater instigator than religion.

You probably do know more about the damage that a belief in hell does to a person than I do, as I've never believed in it, nor lived for extended time periods with anyone who has believed in it. I just know, from what I've seen, that I like a lot of the religious people I've met, and consider them to be open-minded persons in real world related instances.

I live in Missouri.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-16-2011, 09:17 AM
 
38 posts, read 17,970 times
Reputation: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radrook View Post
Notice how atheists and other anti-religionists consider the constant perpetuation of the old fire-and-brimstone idea useful to their anti-religion cause! These people know that isn't the official doctrine of the Catholic Church and of most mainline Protestant churches any longer but make like they don't know in order malign. Nothing strange since misrepresentation in the name of anti-religion is an acceptable tactic for them. That's why you see all these outlandish ideas and ridiculous questions cropping up.

It is truly a pity since a discussion with such individuals doesn't get anywhere because any evidence is either ignored or maligned and if they feel cornered there is always ridicule to fall back on.
If religious people could proffer evidence of, well, ANYTHING supporting their position, you might have better luck.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-16-2011, 09:28 AM
 
8,468 posts, read 13,655,512 times
Reputation: 7538
Quote:
Originally Posted by benaidoo View Post
Just as a scientist needs to believe something exists, or the possibility that it exists before starting his research work; otherwise what is he searching for.
Wrong. One doesn't have to believe in something in order to find evidence of it. Columbus didn't believe in America when he set sail. In fact, even if he had believed America couldn't possibly exist, he still would've found the evidence of it. A scientist might point his telescope up at the stars to see what's out there. He doesn't believe he'll find aliens. In fact, he thinks there are no such thing. But then he looks into his telescope and sees alien ships flying around. Notice how in both cases, the person didn't have to believe in something in order to find evidence of it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-16-2011, 09:46 AM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
13,143 posts, read 19,207,122 times
Reputation: 14007
Quote:
Originally Posted by DennyCrane View Post
If they're going around trying to scare people into believing something, then that gives them something in common with terrorists. Then again, I could say George Bush is guilty of the same thing. When people asked him for proof that Iraq had WMDs, he kept saying the proof could come in the form of a mushroom cloud. Notice how he used fear to get people to support his illegal war?
By that definition, used car salesmen, most kids, most bosses and most teachers are "terrorists" too.

I personally hate the label "terrorist" because it is so overused to invoke fear. People have always tried to influence others through a variety of strategies, fear included. The difference between a "terrorist" and everyone else is that terrorists have a real, planned out agenda and actually kill (or try to kill) people as a means of pushing their agenda.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-16-2011, 10:12 AM
 
8,468 posts, read 13,655,512 times
Reputation: 7538
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
By that definition, used car salesmen, most kids, most bosses and most teachers are "terrorists" too.

I personally hate the label "terrorist" because it is so overused to invoke fear. People have always tried to influence others through a variety of strategies, fear included. The difference between a "terrorist" and everyone else is that terrorists have a real, planned out agenda and actually kill (or try to kill) people as a means of pushing their agenda.
The difference is that a terrorist uses violence or the threat of violence to get people to do what they want. I might be your boss, but the worse I can do is tell you that you'll lose your job. I won't threaten your life or the lives of your family. But if I tell you that you have to believe in my God or you'll die or burn in hell, then how is that different than the terrorist who makes a similar threat?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Atheism and Agnosticism
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top