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Old 06-16-2011, 11:09 AM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
13,143 posts, read 19,220,001 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DennyCrane View Post
The difference is that a terrorist uses violence or the threat of violence to get people to do what they want. I might be your boss, but the worse I can do is tell you that you'll lose your job. I won't threaten your life or the lives of your family. But if I tell you that you have to believe in my God or you'll die or burn in hell, then how is that different than the terrorist who makes a similar threat?
Back to my first point... My Leprechaun says you are in imminent danger of falling of the face of the earth and floating off into space because you obviously don't take him seriously.

Are you scared? Do you really believe that statement? Do I have the power or ability to create such a scenario? OF COURSE NOT! It's a completely empty threat, just like hell, just like me being uncool if I don't buy this Dodge Challenger right now, just like I'm not really going to kick my kids our for being pukes.

Now if I said I'm going to start beheading people until the state issues a proclamation recognizing the existence and superiority of Leprechauns, I would be a real terrorist.

See the difference?
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Old 06-16-2011, 11:14 AM
 
38 posts, read 17,983 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
Back to my first point... My Leprechaun says you are in imminent danger of falling of the face of the earth and floating off into space because you obviously don't take him seriously.

Are you scared? Do you really believe that statement? Do I have the power or ability to create such a scenario? OF COURSE NOT! It's a completely empty threat, just like hell, just like me being uncool if I don't buy this Dodge Challenger right now, just like I'm not really going to kick my kids our for being pukes.

Now if I said I'm going to start beheading people until the state issues a proclamation recognizing the existence and superiority of Leprechauns, I would be a real terrorist.

See the difference?
This ignores the danger posed by vesting in trusted adults the power to educate children about hellfire, the rapture, apocalypse, etc.

I'm with Denny insofar as religious thought, when fed to vulnerable children, is essentially abuse (or an act of terrorizing them, I suppose).
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Old 06-16-2011, 11:40 AM
 
8,468 posts, read 13,663,262 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
Back to my first point... My Leprechaun says you are in imminent danger of falling of the face of the earth and floating off into space because you obviously don't take him seriously.

Are you scared? Do you really believe that statement? Do I have the power or ability to create such a scenario? OF COURSE NOT! It's a completely empty threat, just like hell, just like me being uncool if I don't buy this Dodge Challenger right now, just like I'm not really going to kick my kids our for being pukes.

Now if I said I'm going to start beheading people until the state issues a proclamation recognizing the existence and superiority of Leprechauns, I would be a real terrorist.

See the difference?
The only difference is in how seriously the person takes that threat. But the intent is the same. And DoctorJ brought up an excellent point. Small children believe almost everything they're told. It's fine to tell your son or daughter not to touch the stove or they'll burn their hand. In a case like that, you want them to believe you. But telling them that if they don't believe in God, they'll burn in hell? This is why I consider spiritual beliefs almost childish. People accept the existence of God without question because, like children, they need to feel like someone is watching over them. Belief in God is based on fear and those who use fear to get people to believe in fairy tales are deplorable. Whether people actually believe them is beside the point.
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Old 06-16-2011, 12:36 PM
 
Location: USA
15,906 posts, read 8,188,337 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DennyCrane View Post
Belief in God is based on fear
Often. Not always.

Quote:
and those who use fear to get people to believe in fairy tales are deplorable. Whether people actually believe them is beside the point.
With this, I agree.
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Old 06-16-2011, 02:14 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,945 posts, read 4,750,815 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benaidoo View Post
If you don't believe in God why should you be bothered by someone saying you'll burn in hell. Not believing in God presupposes that God doesn't exist, and if God doesn't exist how could he cause you to burn in hell? Only when you believe God exists would you be worried by someone threatening you with hell fire. But as you argue, if you believe in God you'll not burn in hell. So you see the argument is counterintuitive. Truth of the matter is God forces nobody to believe in him, because he knows forced love cannot endure.
because saying your mother is a ***** is still an insult, whether you believe it to be true or not. If a bystander hears this, and sees that you don't fight agaisnt it, they might think it is true and that would ruin your mother's reputation. I don't want people to think God is a terrorist.
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Old 06-16-2011, 05:14 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,976 posts, read 22,162,433 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DennyCrane View Post
Terrorism is all about instilling fear in people in order to further your own agenda. For example, you threaten to bomb their cities unless they leave your country. That fear, if strong enough, motivates them do as you ask. So if someone is told "you must believe in God or else you'll burn in hell", isn't that also instilling fear in them? And if so, doesn't that essentially make you a terrorist?
I get what you're saying but I think there's one important difference. If you threaten to bomb someone's city unless they leave your country, you are threatening to do something you actually have the power to do. If people believe you, you could be considered a terrorist. Telling someone that he must believe in God or he will burn in hell isn't the same thing (not that I'd be stupid enough to tell something something like that) because the person making the threat has no power to see that it actually happens. No one is in a position to be able to say what God is or isn't going to do to people after they die. Intelligent people aren't going to be terrorized by someone making a threat concerning a being they consider to be imaginary.

(I do like your screen name, though, DennyCrane. It brings back some good memories.)
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Old 06-16-2011, 05:23 PM
 
Location: Minnesota
32 posts, read 32,414 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DennyCrane View Post
Terrorism is all about instilling fear in people in order to further your own agenda. For example, you threaten to bomb their cities unless they leave your country. That fear, if strong enough, motivates them do as you ask. So if someone is told "you must believe in God or else you'll burn in hell", isn't that also instilling fear in them? And if so, doesn't that essentially make you a terrorist?
There is historical documentation of plenty of people killing people over this exact commentary. Believe in god or you worship the devil and we will kill you because now you are evil. If only you would have believed in God, we could have forgiven you. Sounds very familiar right? Hell, and anything resembling it, sounds like it's far more close to earth and definately right here at home. If you ask me, believe there's a higher power, a greater good. Whether or not it is the Christian God, or the 12 gods and goddesses of Olympus or hell, even the egyptian gods of the Nile. Something greater than ourselves exists. WHAT IT IS, however is unclear to me. I am spiritual, just not religious. I believe in a God or higher power, and when i meet them, imma have ALOT of questions. But until then, here's looking at you world, and watching you destroy yourself in whoever's name you chose. Dont count me in on it, I just want to exist and live my life, not end others.
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Old 06-17-2011, 12:59 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,289,313 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clintone View Post
The sense of community you described is attainable in the real world, but as far as I've seen, in happens more often in religious groups.
That may be YOUR experience but you are an anecdote of one. The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not "statistics" and I am aware of no statistic to suggest what you say is true. In fact there is a massive community around things like sports and football. Each weekend in the UK for example every single city is brought together by the local teams home and away games.

We are a social creature and we have many many ways to find social outlets with or without religion. So "as far as I've seen" from you really is meaningless to me. I have no use for anecdotes, especially unverifiable and likely made up ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clintone View Post
Religion can be very dangerous, but much of the time it isn't
So what? Who cares how much of the time it is dangerous. Dangerous is dangerous. There are many dangers in this world we work hard to prevent, avoid or repair regardless of how OFTEN the danger occurs. How often have people actually managed to kill themselves on over head powerlines for example? Statistically it is miniscule. Yet we still go out of our way to post warning labels, make the power lines still higher up, implant objects in the pillars to prevent people climbing them, color the lines to make them more visible and much more.

If something is dangerous it is dangerous. That is all. And we should work to allay those dangers. Especially if the dangerous thing.... like religion.... presents NO benefit to us that could not be attained in it's absence. If something provides no usefullness that could not be attained without it.... yet it provides any dangers or damage at all.... then it is in negative equity of usefullness and should be dispensed with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clintone View Post
I just know, from what I've seen, that I like a lot of the religious people I've met, and consider them to be open-minded persons in real world related instances.
Again you present me anecdote. I pulled you up on this in another thread so I will not repeat my objections here. Suffice to say the plural of anecdote is not statistics.

I like a lot of religious people I have met too and find them open minded also. This is nothing to do with religion. Even if religion is harmful and a kind of infection and is damaging... that says NOTHING AT ALL about the people who are infected with it. AIDS is harmful, damaging and infectious too. I still very much like all the people I have met, and worked with, who are infected with it. I have met nice people too who use, sell, distrubute and believe in Homeopathy. The fact they are nice people changes nothing about the fact that homeopathy is just water in a bottle, has no medical effects above that of placebo, and is damaging in that it is a financial drain on those who purchase it AND it causes them to not take real medication in lieu of taking their water.

In other words: Commenting on the nice attributes of people who are religious is to say NOTHING AT ALL about their religion or religion as a whole. Nothing at all. You are attempting to make religion look good by proxy to the good people who hold it. You need to seperate the two in your head.
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Old 06-17-2011, 09:03 AM
 
8,468 posts, read 13,663,262 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
If you threaten to bomb someone's city unless they leave your country, you are threatening to do something you actually have the power to do. If people believe you, you could be considered a terrorist. Telling someone that he must believe in God or he will burn in hell isn't the same thing (not that I'd be stupid enough to tell something something like that) because the person making the threat has no power to see that it actually happens.
Whether I take someone's threat seriously is irrelevant to the definition of a terrorist. The issue is intent. Is the person trying to instill fear in me in order to get me to do what they want? Suppose Osama bin Laden (back when he was still alive) put out a video saying he was going to bomb America. But I don't think he has any weapons so I think it's an empty threat. Does that suddenly make him no longer a terrorist? Of course not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Some Guy Here View Post
Something greater than ourselves exists. WHAT IT IS, however is unclear to me. I am spiritual, just not religious.
I have no problem with people who believe in God. What I take issue with is people who try to scare me into believing in their God. If you can't convince me that God exists, if the only way you can get me to believe is by trying to scare me, well that's just sad and it makes me wonder whether your belief is based in fear as well. We saw this fear-mongering in the run up to the war. Believe Iraq has WMDs. What's my proof? The proof could come in the form of a mushroom cloud. In other words, I have no proof but I'm going to scare you enough so that you don't care about proof.
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Old 06-17-2011, 10:24 AM
 
Location: Log "cabin" west of Bangor
5,678 posts, read 6,785,251 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DennyCrane View Post
Whether I take someone's threat seriously is irrelevant to the definition of a terrorist. The issue is intent. Is the person trying to instill fear in me in order to get me to do what they want? Suppose Osama bin Laden (back when he was still alive) put out a video saying he was going to bomb America. But I don't think he has any weapons so I think it's an empty threat. Does that suddenly make him no longer a terrorist? Of course not.



I have no problem with people who believe in God. What I take issue with is people who try to scare me into believing in their God. If you can't convince me that God exists, if the only way you can get me to believe is by trying to scare me, well that's just sad and it makes me wonder whether your belief is based in fear as well. We saw this fear-mongering in the run up to the war. Believe Iraq has WMDs. What's my proof? The proof could come in the form of a mushroom cloud. In other words, I have no proof but I'm going to scare you enough so that you don't care about proof.
Now that this has been brought out, I find myself kind of agreeing that this can be seen as a form of terrorism.


(Side note on Iraq and WMDs: While doing some research on uranium mining, I came across some information (publicly available) from the IAEA (IIRC) pertaining to a facility in Iraq which was about to go on-line- including a description of the facility and technology, and an estimate of the number of nuclear warheads it would be capable of producing if it were to go into operation.

This information was sufficient to lead me to believe that the real reason for the attack on Iraq (even after Iraq delivered to Syria a substantial amount of weapons, some of which were subsequently turned over to the US for disposal) was to destroy this facility and Iraq's nuclear weaponry program, while maintaining the facade that the intent was because of more 'ordinary' types of WMDs in order to prevent the public from panic were they to learn that Iraq was on the verge of becoming a nuclear-armed power.

This is, of course, little more than speculation on my part and based on information which may or may not have been accurate. I can't prove that this is what actually happened but I believe the scenario credible enough not to be completely dismissed.)
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