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Old 06-24-2011, 09:40 PM
 
Location: Texas
28,114 posts, read 23,076,706 times
Reputation: 33627
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88 View Post
Atheists only please......

Is there anything that could ever change the views you have now? Even the staunch anti-theist Christopher Hitchens admitted on 60 minutes that he wont say nthat there is nothing that could change his mind, but he has yet to see anything that could come close

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Anyone who is intellectually honest will agree that saying there is NO god takes as much faith as saying there is one.

Because you have no proof either way. So both are faith-based belief systems.

The agnostic at least allows for the chance there could be something or that there could be nothing...which, barring empirical evidence, makes the most sense from a purely logical standpoint.

Btw, you can't just choose to believe something. You either believe it or you don't.
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Old 06-24-2011, 09:45 PM
 
Location: Rome, Georgia
2,258 posts, read 1,792,496 times
Reputation: 1376
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEarthBeneathMe View Post
Did you not read this statement in that wiki:

Firstly, they criticised Plantinga's use of a Bayesian framework in which he arbitrarily assigned initial probabilities without empirical evidence, predetermining the outcome in favor of traditional theism, and described this as a recipe for replacing any non-deterministic theory in the natural sciences, so that for example a probable outcome predicted by quantum mechanics would be seen as the outcome of God's will.

???

That's not exactly how honest science works...
Yes I read it. I am also familiar with Plantinga's entire argument, and have been at a family barbeque with Elliot Sober. Plantinga's argument still stands, even with the objections, as most were not able to penetrate Plantinga's main argument. The fact that Plantinga argued on the evolution of belief as being the same as physical evolution is undeniable. What is deniable is Sober's(and others) assertions that this cannot be argued. We are left with another "no it's not" conclusion.
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Old 06-24-2011, 10:01 PM
 
1,426 posts, read 1,032,656 times
Reputation: 1804
...but he just arbitrarily assigned the numbers, and in such a way as to automatically favor his desired outcome. Doesnt that strike you as a little unscientific? Thats a yes/no question.
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Old 06-24-2011, 10:03 PM
 
Location: Ohio
8,636 posts, read 3,802,192 times
Reputation: 4082
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackmccullough View Post
No. Pointing out the existence of a gap in knowledge does not make your particular favored explanation any more likely than any other proffered explanation.
Didnt say it did make it more likely did I? I just said it remains a valid argument
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Old 06-24-2011, 10:04 PM
 
Location: Rome, Georgia
2,258 posts, read 1,792,496 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEarthBeneathMe View Post
...but he just arbitrarily assigned the numbers, and in such a way as to automatically favor his desired outcome. Doesnt that strike you as a little unscientific? Thats a yes/no question.
Somewhat. The question would be more like: "What is a suitable percentage to give the truth of a belief based upon the evolution of belief". I invite you to answer that. 50-50 is not such an unbelievable number.
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Old 06-24-2011, 10:05 PM
 
Location: Ohio
8,636 posts, read 3,802,192 times
Reputation: 4082
Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4 View Post
anyone who is intellectually honest will agree that saying there is no god takes as much faith as saying there is one.

because you have no proof either way. So both are faith-based belief systems.

The agnostic at least allows for the chance there could be something or that there could be nothing...which, barring empirical evidence, makes the most sense from a purely logical standpoint.

Btw, you can't just choose to believe something. You either believe it or you don't.
thank you!!!!!!!!!
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Old 06-24-2011, 10:09 PM
 
Location: Rome, Georgia
2,258 posts, read 1,792,496 times
Reputation: 1376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Georgiafrog View Post
Somewhat. The question would be more like: "What is a suitable percentage to give the truth of a belief based upon the evolution of belief". I invite you to answer that. 50-50 is not such an unbelievable number.
Besides that, if 50-50 is not fair, what is? There is no way to assign a number to the probability of evolutionary belief, so if even is unfair, what is fair? Sober could never come up with a number that was, only could state that Plantinga's numbers were biased towards Theism. 50%? That doesn't seem a bias. If it is, I'll take Plantinga's numbers at 25%.
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Old 06-25-2011, 10:25 PM
 
Location: NC, USA
7,089 posts, read 8,256,799 times
Reputation: 3835
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
No, there's two of us.
Uhhhhhh, we could make that three!
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Old 06-26-2011, 01:51 PM
 
Location: Metromess
11,805 posts, read 13,895,926 times
Reputation: 4757
Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4 View Post
Anyone who is intellectually honest will agree that saying there is NO god takes as much faith as saying there is one.

Because you have no proof either way. So both are faith-based belief systems.
Stating that atheism is a belief system is like saying bald is a hair color. The lack of belief is not a belief. It simply is not there.

BYW, most atheists are agnostics. We are not certain there is no god, as it cannot be absolutely proven. We have chosen not to believe in one (or we have realized that we already don't).
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Old 06-26-2011, 06:57 PM
 
Location: Log "cabin" west of Bangor
2,984 posts, read 3,353,561 times
Reputation: 2634
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusty Rhodes View Post
Uhhhhhh, we could make that three!
And more.
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