U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Atheism and Agnosticism
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 08-18-2011, 04:30 AM
 
39,198 posts, read 10,872,385 times
Reputation: 5093

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by QuixoticHobbit View Post
Speaking as an agnostic Deist (like Einstein), the same logic and reason that clearly shows us that without a doubt that the Biblical god is a man made absurdity also tells us that some more rational, intelligent creator being(s) could possibly exist.

It also tells us, that since this being or beings, if they do exist have so far in the entirety of human history made no communication or appearances to us that there's no sense in worrying too much about it.
I fully agree. While the personal gods certainly appear beyond any reasonable doubt to be man - made inventions, a deist or pantheist god is undisprovable. Rather like the afterlife.

However, like the afterlife, the evidence for deist -god does not convince (1). And rather as the afterlife (if there is one) is nothing to worry about, Deistgod is (other than academic interest) nothing to bother about.

(1) I argue that a study of man's history argues strongly against any god being involved in it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 08-18-2011, 08:24 AM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
13,856 posts, read 22,979,387 times
Reputation: 6687
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Over history there have been approximately 63,000 religious groups, many of them polytheists, and most with different gods. This means that a Christian or any religious person today has less than a 1 in 63,000 chance of worshiping the correct god, providing that such a god exists....Therefore even the religious are atheists except for the one god they worship....
This seems to assume all gods are equally likely, which is more than a little silly. If a horse race has a dozen horses this doesn't mean each horses chances of winning are one in 12. In fact that's probably not the case. You could see the Christian God as significantly less or more likely than the others. You could even do the "more likely" option and still feel the Christian God is unlikely.

And in a sense the difference between one and zero is more profound than the difference between 1 and 63,000 or even 1 and 63 million. In multiplication/division or percent terms we can't even really express how much more 1 is to zero. Or you could say the difference is infinite. You can say that 63,000 is 6,300,000% of 1 or that 1 is like .0015873015873015873015873015873016% of 63,000. You could say 0 is 0% of 1, but what percent of 0 gets you 1?

Last edited by Thomas R.; 08-18-2011 at 08:35 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-18-2011, 08:53 AM
 
39,198 posts, read 10,872,385 times
Reputation: 5093
That's a reasonable point to put as a question but not as a conclusion, because we know about racehorses. We know that some are going to be better fitted to run than others. But what do we know about Gods? How can we decide from the point of view of human knowledge, which ones are likely or possible? That, Thom, is the conclusion of inventing gods which can be as beyond human ken and as unimaginable as you need in order to keep them possible.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-18-2011, 11:14 AM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
31,777 posts, read 24,913,742 times
Reputation: 12178
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
This seems to assume all gods are equally likely, which is more than a little silly.
The chance for them all being likely or unlikely is equal.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-18-2011, 11:56 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,884 posts, read 31,784,630 times
Reputation: 12629
The only reason you see the god you worship as more likely Thomas, is because it is the one you worship.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-18-2011, 07:38 PM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
13,856 posts, read 22,979,387 times
Reputation: 6687
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
The only reason you see the god you worship as more likely Thomas, is because it is the one you worship.
I don't really want to get into "the God I worship" or whatever. I even said you could take the Christian God as less likely than the others for what I meant. I just think the idea each one is equally likely seems patently unlikely to me.

Taking my religion completely to one side it seems like some "gods" would not be equally likely in the same way some say cryptid-creatures aren't equally likely. There are thousands of animals in the folklore of different indigenous people. They are obviously not all equally likely because some, like that tree kangaroo in New Guinea, turned out to be real.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...w+guinea&hl=en
http://www.papuaweb.org/gb/ref/flann...6/114-115.html

However obviously not all folklore animals turn out to be real. So some "gods" could be say less likely because they require more things that are clearly contradictory to what we observe in nature or the like.

And you can see the Christian god as such a god. You can point to the Book of Genesis or "The Problem of Evil" or whatever and say the Christian God is less likely than Vishnu or Shang-Ti or whatever. I wouldn't agree, but that wasn't my point. My point really was just that each god being equally likely, if you even grant them as non-zero, seems borderline absurd and certainly shallow to me.

Note: I didn't even get into "gods" that were historically recorded people. Matteo Ricci reportedly became revered as a "God of Clocks" in some part of China. The historicity of Matteo Ricci existing I don't think is questioned by even the most ardent skeptics.

Last edited by Thomas R.; 08-18-2011 at 07:50 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-18-2011, 08:02 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,884 posts, read 31,784,630 times
Reputation: 12629
But then you are not an atheist and are evaluating gods through a perspective of one who believes in a particular god...One that speaks of talking snakes and donkeys etc.

As an atheist my perspective is different....To me one is as unlikely as the other.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-18-2011, 08:03 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,945 posts, read 4,744,896 times
Reputation: 1332
sanspeur, couldn't you discuss this over P.M.'s? This thread is about Albert Einstein. (not Tom or you)
'

Thomas' response ties in becuase Einstein believed in "mystical" stuff. So I'll let this conversation slide, as long as it remains about Einstein and his arguments about religion...which Thomas seems kind enough to remain in the visinity of.

edit~ sanspeur's second responce does tie in in that Einstein probably didn't like the litteralist interpretation of Jewish fables.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-18-2011, 08:45 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,884 posts, read 31,784,630 times
Reputation: 12629
Sorry...I was drifting off topic....My bad.

I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it.
Albert Einstein

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. (Albert Einstein, 1954) From Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-18-2011, 09:35 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,945 posts, read 4,744,896 times
Reputation: 1332
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Sorry...I was drifting off topic....My bad.

I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it.
Albert Einstein

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. (Albert Einstein, 1954) From Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press


Wasn't he just lovely, I am moved to tears!
He is surely a Giant whose shoulders we shall stand on and remember for much time to come!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Atheism and Agnosticism
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top