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Old 09-10-2011, 10:52 AM
 
Location: Missouri, USA
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Anyone think there is any evidence for a theist God, but rather than one who wants to be discovered, this theist God has been attempting to illustrate, thoughout history, that He does not want to be discovered?

Last edited by Clintone; 09-10-2011 at 11:21 AM..
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Old 09-10-2011, 01:40 PM
 
Location: Mississippi
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No.
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Old 09-10-2011, 02:08 PM
 
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No!
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Old 09-10-2011, 08:36 PM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
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I think probably not, but it can't be entirely discounted, despite the insistence of most atheists.

The only logical way I can see it working is the whole "Holographic Universe" or "The Matrix" thing, where essentially we misinterpret our reality as THE reality but are actually in some kind of a simulation being run in "god's" (assumed to be real) universe. This would also change the potential nature of god substantially if it was true. God may be omnipotent in our reality, but he could just be some alien kid playing their version of "The Sims" in his. The only good way to prove or disprove it is for the observer to die though, so final answers probably won't be forthcoming until it's our turn to go paddle down the river Styx.

I am more willing to accept the possibility because I have some pesky supernatural experiences of my own to explain that just don't fit in with Science's idea of what is and isn't reality. If nothing else, Science is a ways off from a total understanding of the universe and how it works. To me, supernatural claims and events suggest reality isn't as real as we think it is.


Plus, if we had the technology that's exactly what we would do, wouldn't we? ...Create AI programs and see what happens or maybe run a simulated life or 1000, either at high virtual speed so we only waste a day or two in reality or just to pass time if we've figured out how to cheat death and are bored of exploring the universe.
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Old 09-10-2011, 10:43 PM
 
Location: Metromess
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Chango: How do you know that you "supernatural experiences" were really supernatural? And I would posit that, while scientific inquiry may not have a "total understanding", it's way ahead of every other methodology we have for discovering the truth about reality, which is all there is unless one simply wants to escape it.
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Old 09-10-2011, 11:07 PM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catman View Post
Chango: How do you know that you "supernatural experiences" were really supernatural? And I would posit that, while scientific inquiry may not have a "total understanding", it's way ahead of every other methodology we have for discovering the truth about reality, which is all there is unless one simply wants to escape it.
Ultimately I don't...

I saw a ghost... three flipping times, and there was no rhyme or reason for it. In case you haven't noticed, it continues to bug me regularly that the impossible happened to me. I can't just go back to that comfy place among my textbooks where everything is clear, predictable and understandable.

I do know the doc (through the application of science) didn't find anything wrong with my noggin and I don't otherwise exhibit looney-tune behavior or thought processes. Surprisingly, there are tens of thousands of people, maybe more who are in the same boat as me. I'm way past the "OMG, what if I'm crazy?!" stage, but I still can't make any sense of my experiences. Some people may feel the need to validate their sanity by trying to convince others of what they saw...I don't care what others think; I just want answers for myself.

But yes, Science is currently the best tool we have for understanding WTF it is all about. It's just really obnoxious and aggravating to bump up against the all too real limits of scientific understanding. I can't just deny anything that pops up on the other side of that line anymore...

But I also know science is a learning process, not a learning end and I suspect someday kids will crack open their textbooks and read about subatomic holographic environmental recordings which can be translated by the brain in certain circumstances.... or something... someday.

But like I said, there is just not enough information to come to conclusions. But one thing I'm sure of is that the existence of ghosts does NOT equal the existence of god, an afterlife and especially not religion. If anything, real "paranormal" phenomena probably inspired their invention in the first place.

Last edited by Chango; 09-10-2011 at 11:29 PM..
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Old 09-11-2011, 02:34 AM
 
Location: Missouri, USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
Ultimately I don't...

I saw a ghost... three flipping times, and there was no rhyme or reason for it. In case you haven't noticed, it continues to bug me regularly that the impossible happened to me. I can't just go back to that comfy place among my textbooks where everything is clear, predictable and understandable.

I do know the doc (through the application of science) didn't find anything wrong with my noggin and I don't otherwise exhibit looney-tune behavior or thought processes. Surprisingly, there are tens of thousands of people, maybe more who are in the same boat as me. I'm way past the "OMG, what if I'm crazy?!" stage, but I still can't make any sense of my experiences. Some people may feel the need to validate their sanity by trying to convince others of what they saw...I don't care what others think; I just want answers for myself.

But yes, Science is currently the best tool we have for understanding WTF it is all about. It's just really obnoxious and aggravating to bump up against the all too real limits of scientific understanding. I can't just deny anything that pops up on the other side of that line anymore...

But I also know science is a learning process, not a learning end and I suspect someday kids will crack open their textbooks and read about subatomic holographic environmental recordings which can be translated by the brain in certain circumstances.... or something... someday.

But like I said, there is just not enough information to come to conclusions. But one thing I'm sure of is that the existence of ghosts does NOT equal the existence of god, an afterlife and especially not religion. If anything, real "paranormal" phenomena probably inspired their invention in the first place.
Well, the legendary monster, the Chupacabra has been found.
Dead Chupacabras Found in Texas? - YouTube

I'm a little more surprised about ghosts. Who knows what someone might see as a ghost might actually be?
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Old 09-12-2011, 01:25 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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I have had semi-explained strange visual and audatory experiences. the explination is that it was a mistake by my mind.

1. As a child, I saw an eel-like shadow escape from my mouth, right before I was going to tell something to my cousins, who unluckily had their heads turned at the time. (though it could have been a Mushi)

2. When I was on a long road trip in my late teens, I saw a grassman just clearly step up from laying in the grass. I had much lack of sleep, so I could not tell if it was a visual hallucination or a mental one as I dosed off a little. (though it could have been an elve, or grass-spirit)

3. Later in that same year, I was once very sleepy and went to lay in my bed, then I heard my name distinctly been called out by one of my friends, yet that said person was nowhere around. (though it could have been an echo-spirit, wispering words that it had caught before)
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Old 09-15-2011, 11:40 AM
 
Location: NC, USA
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Shy God?

The non-existent and those that never show themselves look very much alike. I quit having imaginary friends when I was eight.
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Old 09-16-2011, 03:56 AM
 
39,033 posts, read 10,825,389 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
I have had semi-explained strange visual and audatory experiences. the explination is that it was a mistake by my mind.

1. As a child, I saw an eel-like shadow escape from my mouth, right before I was going to tell something to my cousins, who unluckily had their heads turned at the time. (though it could have been a Mushi)

2. When I was on a long road trip in my late teens, I saw a grassman just clearly step up from laying in the grass. I had much lack of sleep, so I could not tell if it was a visual hallucination or a mental one as I dosed off a little. (though it could have been an elve, or grass-spirit)

3. Later in that same year, I was once very sleepy and went to lay in my bed, then I heard my name distinctly been called out by one of my friends, yet that said person was nowhere around. (though it could have been an echo-spirit, wispering words that it had caught before)
I have heard 'voices' calling my name in a way that could easily be taken as 'angelic' but i thought at the time they were just in my head and now I'm sure of it. I also recall seeing a reflection in a horse's eye of another horse that wasn't even there and I can't explain that even now. But I can't see what on earth that has to do with a god, personal or remote.

The unexplained is simply unexplained, not evidence for one particular preferred theory.
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