I think believers NEED to read this so they can be enlightened on a few misconceptions (salvation, Buddha)

[old_cold]

Originally Posted by Woodrow LI

I apologize if my comment sounded like that was what I was implying. I was speaking in Generalities and stating we all are responsible for our own choices and nobody should believe or not believe, based upon the words of another person.

Isn't that exactly what anyone that goes by the Bible or the Koran is doing?

[Woodrow LI]

Originally Posted by old_cold

Isn't that exactly what anyone that goes by the Bible or the Koran is doing?

As a Muslim I am obligated to search for and verify the words of the Qur'an. It is up to myself to investigate and determine what is being spoken of. Nobody feeds me Tafsir (interpretations of the Qur'an) there are very few people I accept Tafsir from.

Islamic teachings are more like a self learning process. You do not get spoon fed explanations of the Qur'an. You search. It is more like person A says something is forbidden I ask why and person A says because it is written in the Qur'an I ask where, he gives me the ayyats he believes forbid it. I read and come back and say Brother, you are mistaken. You have taken things out of context the ayyats you gave are from different surahs and speak of different things.

We do believe that the Qur'an is not the word of any man. We believe Muhammad(PBUT) only repeated what the Angel Jibreel told him. Nothing in the Qur'an is from Muhammad(PBUT) He did not know what was in the Qur'an until after each ayyat was revealed by Jibreel.

[rifleman]

Originally Posted by littlewitness

Shalom...your assumption that there is no proof of G-d's existence is not valid without proof...

First-off, lw, I could not find your post post which northstar commented on. Where did it go? Was it deleted by a mod? Hmmm. Just curious.

Anyhow, your assessment that my life is grey, bleak and essentially worthless, (I'll assume you mean "without your particular God"...) is at once lacking creativity, imagination, love and purpose. It is however typical of the devout but unimaginative and spiritually dependent Christian, who requires his or her guidebook to undersand what he or she is supposed to be happy and joyous about.

Let me set yah straight, suhh-eee! (BTW, how old are you?)

I lost the sheeple-flock response back when my own keen mind was coupled with, first, my strong engineering education background. Then, it got a startling boost in objectivity when I followed that, 5 years later, with 3.5 additional degrees, but this time, because of my intense interest in the topic, they were in biology, genetics, evolution and the environment. Then, just to put some topping on the cake, I pursued some advanced post-grad studies in geology.

All of this flies right in the face of the hugely scientifically illiterate claims by most closed-minded devout Christians, esp. those who do not want to learn about what's REALLY going on out there. They just close their eyes, ears and mind and yowl "NahNahNahNahhhh!!!"

I knew some very few (but dwindling, as we all progressed up the educational/knowledge ladder...) Christians in my chosen field. Yup! The oft-noted but increasingly rare Christian Scientist. (Most of those scarce types don't make it very far in their scientific careers however. After all, you can't be that engulfingly WRONG and hope to gain the enduring respect of your fellow scientists...)

Their professional presence grew less and less, because their mandated interpretations (as in: subject to strong cultural disciplinary action if they didn't bow & crape in union... [talk about "grey and bleak..."]) left them in serious trouble trying to be in any way objective. They needed a line from scripture to explain everything! What a waste of an otherwise good mind!

This was especially evident when we got into the lab work where we could literally see DNA's amino acid components form up, and we could watch biochemicals act out their own little self-determined dances because of basic intermolecular actions. Absent any Godly meddling. I'll assume He was busy elsewhere, I mean, hey; an entity in our own image has to know His limitations, right?

Originally Posted by littlewitness

Shalom...if death is the end of every thing that there is, why does life continue?
Stop blaming Christianity for your turning away...every man is responsible for his own actions...

An odd question. "If death is the end, why does life continue..."? Huh? You are ASSUMING that the only reason for our existence is to get through to some promised heavenly end? (Hmmmm... does this sound in any way like the 72 Virgins approach to behavior alteration? Huh? Yes? I thought you'd recognize it!)

And that en-route to heaven, you must bow and scrape, to thoroughly subjugate your mind & body to an imaginary wooden icon in order to have a reason to live? That to be able to observe (without some limiting and obstructive biases) the true beauty that has, obviously, evolved all around us through very easily understood and observed processes is to be avoided in favor of clinching one's eyes shut and climing it's all just because of a "loving and singular God".

Hmmm... No wonder you don't see the real world in color! You do know, don't you, that we've long-go moved on to big'ol very wide flat screen HD TV now, some, like my new one, even offering it's images in 3-D? You really ought to get out more!

Originally Posted by brightdoglover

I find believers often state that "hope" is a key part of their belief system, or that not believing makes one hopeless. "Hope" that you don't end, that you will see departed others? I've heard more than one believer say that, if there isn't an afterlife, they might as well kill themselves, because life would be so hopeless. (huh?)
This fear of death, of ending... I think Buddhists might have a better hold on this, except for the ones who believe in reincarnation. More of the same, that.

So true, so true! The built-in abject trembling fear of death's inevitable end does not motivate these people to be more observant or rational; rather they choose to allow their hard faith to guide their interpretations, their beliefs, and their end-game. Any thoughts outside that casketesque box is antithetical to their lives.

They are also essentially demonstrative of a now-predictable Pavlovian response to any science, any new deduction or any modern, supportable conclusions. By comparison, in the process of learning what truly is going on in our world, we atheist scientists do indeed see it all in HD color, as well as in all it's other 4- or 5-D degrees of freedom.

NOTE: We realists get to add in time and other dimensions that Christians can't apparently even imagine. They're not allowed to, you see, lest they get their little socio-cultural-spiritual mental tooshes slapped! That well-learned and reactive response, easily visible here in some of our friends' bleating comebacks, w.

Death is but a part of our entire biochemical existence, and yes, then we're gone, without the oh-so-arrogant assumption that we are so important that heck; we just have to go on in corpus absentia! We juss' havetah! (Cue the sobbing, prostrate souls, mumbling desperately and incoherently into the tear-stained carpeting, trying to avoid thinking of their own sorry and blindered mortality..).

Google Images

Fact: get it right and soon you too can enjoy the true glories of the amazing world that is all around you, and can also enjoy the equally amazing fact that you did get here by chance. The facts of DNAs reproductive abilities, held within it's amazing simplicity, has single-handedly allowed the creation of any and all levels of complexity (check out my Lego™ analogies! Build whatever you want, but all with simple, tiny little colored blocks! )

Google Images

Hmmmph... it must be the LeGodz, huh?)

[littlewitness]

Originally Posted by rifleman

First-off, lw, I could not find your post post which northstar commented on. Where did it go? Was it deleted by a mod? Hmmm. Just curious.

Anyhow, your assessment that my life is grey, bleak and essentially worthless, (I'll assume you mean "without your particular God"...) is at once lacking creativity, imagination, love and purpose. It is however typical of the devout but unimaginative and spiritually dependent Christian, who requires his or her guidebook to undersand what he or she is supposed to be happy and joyous about.

Let me set yah straight, suhh-eee! (BTW, how old are you?)

I lost the sheeple-flock response back when my own keen mind was coupled with, first, my strong engineering education background. Then, it got a startling boost in objectivity when I followed that, 5 years later, with 3.5 additional degrees, but this time, because of my intense interest in the topic, they were in biology, genetics, evolution and the environment. Then, just to put some topping on the cake, I pursued some advanced post-grad studies in geology.

All of this flies right in the face of the hugely scientifically illiterate claims by most closed-minded devout Christians, esp. those who do not want to learn about what's REALLY going on out there. They just close their eyes, ears and mind and yowl "NahNahNahNahhhh!!!"

I knew some very few (but dwindling, as we all progressed up the educational/knowledge ladder...) Christians in my chosen field. Yup! The oft-noted but increasingly rare Christian Scientist. (Most of those scarce types don't make it very far in their scientific careers however. After all, you can't be that engulfingly WRONG and hope to gain the enduring respect of your fellow scientists...)

Their professional presence grew less and less, because their mandated interpretations (as in: subject to strong cultural disciplinary action if they didn't bow & crape in union... [talk about "grey and bleak..."]) left them in serious trouble trying to be in any way objective. They needed a line from scripture to explain everything! What a waste of an otherwise good mind!

This was especially evident when we got into the lab work where we could literally see DNA's amino acid components form up, and we could watch biochemicals act out their own little self-determined dances because of basic intermolecular actions. Absent any Godly meddling. I'll assume He was busy elsewhere, I mean, hey; an entity in our own image has to know His limitations, right?



An odd question. "If death is the end, why does life continue..."? Huh? You are ASSUMING that the only reason for our existence is to get through to some promised heavenly end? (Hmmmm... does this sound in any way like the 72 Virgins approach to behavior alteration? Huh? Yes? I thought you'd recognize it!)

And that en-route to heaven, you must bow and scrape, to thoroughly subjugate your mind & body to an imaginary wooden icon in order to have a reason to live? That to be able to observe (without some limiting and obstructive biases) the true beauty that has, obviously, evolved all around us through very easily understood and observed processes is to be avoided in favor of clinching one's eyes shut and climing it's all just because of a "loving and singular God".

Hmmm... No wonder you don't see the real world in color! You do know, don't you, that we've long-go moved on to big'ol very wide flat screen HD TV now, some, like my new one, even offering it's images in 3-D? You really ought to get out more!



So true, so true! The built-in abject trembling fear of death's inevitable end does not motivate these people to be more observant or rational; rather they choose to allow their hard faith to guide their interpretations, their beliefs, and their end-game. Any thoughts outside that casketesque box is antithetical to their lives.

They are also essentially demonstrative of a now-predictable Pavlovian response to any science, any new deduction or any modern, supportable conclusions. By comparison, in the process of learning what truly is going on in our world, we atheist scientists do indeed see it all in HD color, as well as in all it's other 4- or 5-D degrees of freedom.

NOTE: We realists get to add in time and other dimensions that Christians can't apparently even imagine. They're not allowed to, you see, lest they get their little socio-cultural-spiritual mental tooshes slapped! That well-learned and reactive response, easily visible here in some of our friends' bleating comebacks, w.

Death is but a part of our entire biochemical existence, and yes, then we're gone, without the oh-so-arrogant assumption that we are so important that heck; we just have to go on in corpus absentia! We juss' havetah! (Cue the sobbing, prostrate souls, mumbling desperately and incoherently into the tear-stained carpeting, trying to avoid thinking of their own sorry and blindered mortality..).

Google Images

Fact: get it right and soon you too can enjoy the true glories of the amazing world that is all around you, and can also enjoy the equally amazing fact that you did get here by chance. The facts of DNAs reproductive abilities, held within it's amazing simplicity, has single-handedly allowed the creation of any and all levels of complexity (check out my Lego™ analogies! Build whatever you want, but all with simple, tiny little colored blocks! )

Google Images

Hmmmph... it must be the LeGodz, huh?)

Shalom rifleman...the accusation by the owner of City-Data Forum that I was "inducing" you to change your mind regarding your unbelief in G-d, seems to have induced you to make your own proselytizing comments from the realm of negativity.
Your analysis of my post being a personal attack on your self worth is unfounded...I said "ya'lls" version of the truth is bleak and grey..."ya'll" being all of you loving uniformitarianists' who are constantly "proselytizing" (exercising your first amendment rights) your world view across gigatime that death preceded sin.
It's apparent you "believe" that you are without sin, so naturally you enjoy casting stones as much as any "old" man who finds the truth a pesky inconvenience to their "science" so falsely called.
It's sad that so many ascribe true beauty in this life to an abstract god called "evolution"...which is not an observable process. You sound like Job...your entire post is an assumption that it profits a man nothing to delight himself in G-d. Far be it from G-d that He should create and not make it good.

"For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to his ways." Job 34:11 KJV
My age is incidental...nevertheless, day by day...

[rifleman]

Originally Posted by littlewitness

Shalom rifleman...the accusation by the owner of City-Data Forum that I was "inducing" you to change your mind regarding your unbelief in G-d, seems to have induced you to make your own proselytizing comments from the realm of negativity.

Your analysis of my post being a personal attack on your self worth is unfounded...I said "ya'lls" version of the truth is bleak and grey..."ya'll" being all of you loving uniformitarianists' who are constantly "proselytizing" (exercising your first amendment rights) your world view across gigatime that death preceded sin.

It's apparent you "believe" that you are without sin, so naturally you enjoy casting stones as much as any "old" man who finds the truth a pesky inconvenience to their "science" so falsely called.

It's sad that so many ascribe true beauty in this life to an abstract god called "evolution"...which is not an observable process. You sound like Job...your entire post is an assumption that it profits a man nothing to delight himself in G-d. Far be it from G-d that He should create and not make it good.

"For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to his ways." Job 34:11 KJV
My age is incidental...nevertheless, day by day...

Ahh yes; the quoted words of others. Me? I rather like to come to my own conclusions, following my own detailed personal analyses. You know, absent the wooden words in some ancient but obviously scientifically errant book of dreams.

Yep; day by day, you will eventually grow up, and be wise(r) beyond your years. You'll also learn that not all can be achieved by simply rote-chanting what others have told you. After all, they hav hteir position of poweer to dfend, and they certainly cant have people thinking things through, now can they?

That' be why Darwin, Einstein, Hitchens et al struggled briefly with their religion. And also why they eventually tossed such restrictive ideas out.

[littlewitness]

Originally Posted by brightdoglover

"Shalom "Joe"...I pray The Holy Spirit bring you The True Peace of Christ..."

Aren't you in the wrong forum?

Shalom...The Truth must be spoken everywhere...

[Huckleberry3911948]

enlightenment is coming nearer the light. the light is never full of accusations and anger. that would be the other direction, darkness.

[Nozzferrahhtoo]

Originally Posted by Woodrow LI

What is there to back up?

Was this meant to read "What IF there is back up?". IF There is back up then I simply want to know what it is. That is all. I am amazed that so many of you think that is a lot to ask. I myself make a point of never making claims I can not at least partially back up. I do not feel it out of line to ask that other people act with similar decorum.

Originally Posted by Woodrow LI

My simple stand is I believe God(swt) exists.

As I keep pointing out I know WHAT you believe. I do not need it periodically reiterated. I have been asking if you have any actual reasons you can share for WHY you believe it. THAT you believe it is clear, but this world is full of people who believe all kinds of things, some of them even more out there than what you believe. The task therefore is to wade into this sea of ideas and see which ones are valid or substantiated. Thus far yours is in the list of the ones that are not.

What you are simply saying on this thread, and using a lot of words to say it even though a few would do: Is that you have no more reason to believe this stuff than I do. You simply have nothing at all that substantiates the claims.

As I said, you are not alone in this. There are millions of believers out there. None of them has a shred of even an iota of substantiation either.

Originally Posted by Woodrow LI

For what you ask for as proof, I doubt anybody could give you any.

Once again, and I am not sure how many times I need to say this before it will sink in, I do not ask for anything as lofty as "proof". You use this word. I do not. What I ask for is ANY arguments, evidence, data or reasons to lend the idea there is a god even a modicum of credence. That is a lot easier than proof. You apparently still can't however.

Originally Posted by Woodrow LI

I suspect you are making an attempt to convince me he does not.

Then your suspicions would be wrong. Nor can you quote me saying or attempting any such thing.

My agenda on this forum is not to change the minds of people like yourself, but to use people like yourself as a tool to highlight the fact that people like yourself are distributed through this world making claims and espousing ideas that are entirely without basis, entirely unsubstantiated and entirely vacuous.

I may be replying to your posts, but my words are not actually addressed at you but at any people who come into threads like this looking for any reason to think there is a god. Every post you make failing to give such reasons serves my ends therefore for which I can only thank you.

Every post you make doing backwards somersaults to come up with excuses for not substantiating your claims are even better again. It is like watching a politician at work and the cynical exercises they engage in to avoid answering questions put to them. Over time when politicians avoid the questions enough people start to see them for what they really are. Again my ends are greatly served by having you act in that fashion.

I am a long believer in the idea that the best way to attack a system of thought is not to try and argue against it, but instead to let the subscribers to that system just keep talking... and do what you can to keep them talking. I find they do more damage to themselves than I could ever do in the way they talk and act and to be honest you could not be helping me serve my own ends better if you were to give me your password and let me write your posts for you.

So no, if you think I am trying to convince you of anything you are entirely mistaken. I merely want to keep you (by you in this entire sentence I mean theists in general, not you personally) talking so people can see you literally have no substantiation for your claims and you will do anything at all to cop out of even the attempt.

[Woodrow LI]

Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo

Was this meant to read "What IF there is back up?". IF There is back up then I simply want to know what it is. That is all. I am amazed that so many of you think that is a lot to ask. I myself make a point of never making claims I can not at least partially back up. I do not feel it out of line to ask that other people act with similar decorum.



As I keep pointing out I know WHAT you believe. I do not need it periodically reiterated. I have been asking if you have any actual reasons you can share for WHY you believe it. THAT you believe it is clear, but this world is full of people who believe all kinds of things, some of them even more out there than what you believe. The task therefore is to wade into this sea of ideas and see which ones are valid or substantiated. Thus far yours is in the list of the ones that are not.

What you are simply saying on this thread, and using a lot of words to say it even though a few would do: Is that you have no more reason to believe this stuff than I do. You simply have nothing at all that substantiates the claims.

As I said, you are not alone in this. There are millions of believers out there. None of them has a shred of even an iota of substantiation either.



Once again, and I am not sure how many times I need to say this before it will sink in, I do not ask for anything as lofty as "proof". You use this word. I do not. What I ask for is ANY arguments, evidence, data or reasons to lend the idea there is a god even a modicum of credence. That is a lot easier than proof. You apparently still can't however.



Then your suspicions would be wrong. Nor can you quote me saying or attempting any such thing.

My agenda on this forum is not to change the minds of people like yourself, but to use people like yourself as a tool to highlight the fact that people like yourself are distributed through this world making claims and espousing ideas that are entirely without basis, entirely unsubstantiated and entirely vacuous.

I may be replying to your posts, but my words are not actually addressed at you but at any people who come into threads like this looking for any reason to think there is a god. Every post you make failing to give such reasons serves my ends therefore for which I can only thank you.

Every post you make doing backwards somersaults to come up with excuses for not substantiating your claims are even better again. It is like watching a politician at work and the cynical exercises they engage in to avoid answering questions put to them. Over time when politicians avoid the questions enough people start to see them for what they really are. Again my ends are greatly served by having you act in that fashion.

I am a long believer in the idea that the best way to attack a system of thought is not to try and argue against it, but instead to let the subscribers to that system just keep talking... and do what you can to keep them talking. I find they do more damage to themselves than I could ever do in the way they talk and act and to be honest you could not be helping me serve my own ends better if you were to give me your password and let me write your posts for you.

So no, if you think I am trying to convince you of anything you are entirely mistaken. I merely want to keep you (by you in this entire sentence I mean theists in general, not you personally) talking so people can see you literally have no substantiation for your claims and you will do anything at all to cop out of even the attempt.

Perhaps I can sum this all up in a few words. A theist sees all things as evidence of God(swt). Yes, it is a circular arguement because I am essentially saying "I believe in God(swt) therefore all things are evidence of God(swt), All things are evidence of God(swt) therefore I believe in God(swt)"

Yes I agree it makes absolutly no sense to an atheist. as I am saying that to see evidence of God(swt), one must believe in God(swt).

How and why a person comes to believe in God(swt) in the first place will be as individualist as there are theists. I really doubt any 2 of us have the same reasons.

Typically you can identify things that initiated the concept of God(swt) to a few factors:

Culture
Religious Teachings
Personal unexplained questions
An inner "Feeling"
A slow life long process of gradual acceptance.


Now at what point a person is going to come to an actual belief in God(swt) is going to vary. But, once that is reached a person will be very tenacious in it.

An atheist will never fully understand why a Theist believes, a Theist will never fully understand why an atheist does not.

[Nozzferrahhtoo]

Originally Posted by Woodrow LI

Perhaps I can sum this all up in a few words. A theist sees all things as evidence of God(swt). Yes, it is a circular arguement because I am essentially saying "I believe in God(swt) therefore all things are evidence of God(swt), All things are evidence of God(swt) therefore I believe in God(swt)"

So even you recognize the weakness of your own argument. That is heartening at least, though it makes your belief in your own conclusions somewhat more baffling. If you know your arguments are bad ones, why run with them.

What you are espousing here is not just circular, it is what is called "Confirmation bias". A system of thought where you decide the conclusion first then actively try to fit the evidence to it. Lots of people do this. The 23ist for example think that the number 23 is behind everything there is. They decide this is true and then they go looking for 23 everywhere they can find it.

The thing is they find it. 23 is an easy number to find. Most numbers are, especially prime numbers. You will find 23 everywhere you look and because you already think 23 is behind everything, your belief will be constantly confirmed. If you see the number 1567211 You will find 23 because 1+5+6+7+2+1+1 = 23 for example. Today is 13 10 2011. Look 13+10 = 23! There it is again.

What such 23ists do not even notice however is that if they woke up tomorrow and became 17ist, or 13ists, or 11ists or whatever... it would work just as well.

Like you saying "to see evidence of god one must believe in god" is to me no different in ANY way to saying "to see evidence for 23ism one must believe in 23ism".

In fact I actually define "faith" as "The willingness to accept a conclusion as true before trying to prove the conclusion".

The Bible too promotes this form of false thinking. "Seek and you shall find" it tells you. Of course you will!! It would be a miracle if you did not.

I know it is bad thinking. You know it is bad thinking. The only difference between us is one of us has decided to get rid of bad thinking. The other one has decided to hold on to it and run with it. For reasons unknown but possibly connected to the bias formed because religion, despite being false, got you out of a bad place and so you are positively disposed towards it.