U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Atheism and Agnosticism
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 10-08-2011, 05:05 AM
 
39,211 posts, read 10,895,806 times
Reputation: 5097

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Careful, coming to see the wonders of nature is getting close to being evidence of God(swt)
Yes it is. After the long discussion with Mystic Philosopher, I came to see that the dividing line between nature and god was pretty fine and had to accept that the god of Einstein, if not a forward -planning mind, was possible. Even feasible. But I have never seen theists arguing this point consider that 'god' might just be unthinking nature. If they admit the possibility (I can't recall one that did) it never led to an agnostic 'wait and see' attitude, which is all atheism needs. There was always this pressure for me me to rethink. Never them.

Quote:
I really doubt actually seeing God(swt) face-to-face would convince many people. I suspect after the initial shock passed, the person would begin attributing human attributes to God(swt) and soon come to the conclusion, that he did not see anything beyond the physical world and was just fortunate enough to come in contact with a non-Human life form.

Even if you watched it turn to wine in front of your own eyes. You would soon find a way to explain it by physical causes. Every miracle can be explained by physical possibilities, including theories of how there are still undiscovered natural forces. Miracles are not convincing, unless a person has reason to believe God(swt) exists. I do not find that Miracles prove the existence of God(swt) rather I find the existence of God(swt) proves the Miracles.
I wonder. It is a bit close to saying that atheists will always rationalize away evidence for God etc, no matter how strong. In fact, I have had to take on board quite a few facts which at the time seemed to support theism though it later turned out that the facts had been misrepresented.

I can't be definite, of course, but, yep, I'm saying if that water turned into wine, I would stick to my promise to convert.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-09-2011, 02:57 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,286,683 times
Reputation: 2973
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
All I can o\ffer is my long boring life story as to how I as raised Christian, later became agnostic and had personal experiences that convinced me God(swt) exists. Nothing you would have any interest in hearing about, as they are simply my own experiences.
So you do not actually have any arguments, evidence, data or reasons to suggest there is a god? At least that is honest. However I could have sworn you alluded to the fact you DID have such things. I am somewhat confused.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-09-2011, 04:28 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,302,730 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
So you do not actually have any arguments, evidence, data or reasons to suggest there is a god? At least that is honest. However I could have sworn you alluded to the fact you DID have such things. I am somewhat confused.
It is possible that some of my posts could have given you that impression, but my intent has always been that it was/is my personal experiences. Which is why I stress a person must/will/can find proof of God(swt) through their own searching and verifying.

I can allude to evidence such as the creation of matter, the words of the Prophets etc. But, it will all come down to what each individual finds as proof. As God(swt) is not a physical being and not of this world, we have no physical means to measure his existence, it all comes from evidence.

I believe the Qur'an could not have been written by Man and I conclude that through linguistic studies of the Arabic language and the nature of the Book. For me that is proof for others it may be evidence. I do believe that miracles have happened and continue to happen, but again that is evidence and not proof. Proof comes to be what one accepts as proof.

I do contend that the preponderance of evidence strongly supports the existence of God(swt), but I do accept that will not be sufficient for some people and they seek measurable/quantitative/replicable/indisputable proof.

To myself my life experience convince me of the existence of God(swt), to others that is meaningless. The fact I am Muslim I see as evidence of the existence of God(swt). To others it was simply a chain of coincidences.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-09-2011, 12:59 PM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,286,683 times
Reputation: 2973
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
It is possible that some of my posts could have given you that impression, but my intent has always been that it was/is my personal experiences.
A shame. I will add you to the 18+ long years list of people I have met who claim there is a god but can not offer a single reason to think there is. It is a long list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
But, it will all come down to what each individual finds as proof.
I am quite free with that actually. For me anything is evidence if it follows a simple pattern. To give evidence you simply:

1) State a claim.
2) List the things you think support that claim.
3) Explain exactly how the things in 2 support the claim in 1.

Simple huh?

I rarely ask for "proof" however. I ask for ANY evidence, arguments, data OR reasons to lend the claim there is a god even a modicum of credence. That SHOULD be a lot easier than proof.. but like I said after 18+ years of asking I mostly get answers similar to what you have been given.... which is cop out reasons for why you will not be actually giving any evidence
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-09-2011, 07:32 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,302,730 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
A shame. I will add you to the 18+ long years list of people I have met who claim there is a god but can not offer a single reason to think there is. It is a long list.



I am quite free with that actually. For me anything is evidence if it follows a simple pattern. To give evidence you simply:

1) State a claim.
2) List the things you think support that claim.
3) Explain exactly how the things in 2 support the claim in 1.

Simple huh?

I rarely ask for "proof" however. I ask for ANY evidence, arguments, data OR reasons to lend the claim there is a god even a modicum of credence. That SHOULD be a lot easier than proof.. but like I said after 18+ years of asking I mostly get answers similar to what you have been given.... which is cop out reasons for why you will not be actually giving any evidence
My evidence is why I accepted Islam

When I embraced Islam I had nothing I considered evidence it was true. I was quite agnostic and close to atheism. I had no desire to accept Islam and never thought I would. I had long before retired from my professional career. Was pursing a child hood dream to be a Texas Cowboy. Lived in a somewhat rural community, had a pickem up truck, with the standard decals and Bumper stickers "America, love it or leave it" "Proud Air force Veteran" "Protected by S&W, I don't call 911" etc.

Anderson county Texas was/is nearly 100% White English speaking Protestant with a large number of Pentecostals. An old reputation for lynching non-whites, Gays and Yankees"

I had just sobered up after a year long drunken binge after my wife died. Finally decided to clean up the house a touch. A year long drunk has a way to make a house messy. In the cleaning I came across an Arabic Qur'an I had picked up in Morocco in 1961 when I was stationed there. I had not opened it over 40 years, and was curious if I could still read Arabic. By the time I finished I knew I was Muslim and always had been, just never wanted to accept it.The result was an inner peace of mind and change of life style. That was 7 years ago and since then my life has been much devoted to the study of Islam. I am currently working on a better understanding of the Ahadith. I consider my change in life as being evidence of the existence of God(swt). Not proof just evidence.

That is the how and why I became Muslim. I did not want to accept Islam, I came to understand I am Muslim and always will be.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-09-2011, 07:33 PM
 
1,114 posts, read 1,026,706 times
Reputation: 453
Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4 View Post

Quote:
When oh when are we ever going to able to put this basic and universal misconception about atheism to bed?
When every atheist I meet stops saying, "There is no god."
Nice to meet you!

(from another atheist who does not say "there is no god")
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-09-2011, 07:38 PM
 
Location: Southern Minnesota
5,990 posts, read 11,577,680 times
Reputation: 3235
If someone can show me proof of one miracle (that cannot be explained by naturalistic means), I will believe. I've yet to see anything of the sort.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-09-2011, 07:44 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,302,730 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by northstar22 View Post
If someone can show me proof of one miracle (that cannot be explained by naturalistic means), I will believe. I've yet to see anything of the sort.
I believe Nozzferrahhtoo and myself have somewhat derailed this thread and turned it into a debate over proof of the existence of God(swt) I deeply apologize for doing so.

Let us let this thread return to the original topic and find or start another thread, to debate proof of God(swt)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-09-2011, 07:45 PM
 
Location: Toronto, ON
2,333 posts, read 2,509,869 times
Reputation: 258
Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
10 Myths Many Religious People Hold About Atheists, Debunked | | AlterNet

Here's one excerpt in relation to believers making the ridiculous claim that "atheism is just another kind of faith":


Does the atheist feel we shouldn't have any Hope either. I might dig that.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-09-2011, 07:58 PM
 
1,114 posts, read 1,026,706 times
Reputation: 453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Says you. I am not so convinced. Maybe if you were the first I would bite. However I have spent 18+ years now with people essentially 1) Saying there is loads of evidence 2) Then going into a long diatribe about why they will not actually be giving any of it.

After the first couple of people you might believe them. After 18 years you learn to recognize a cover and run when you see it.



Tried/trying that. Nothing doing.
Aint that the truth!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Atheism and Agnosticism
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top