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Old 10-11-2011, 06:39 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,305,624 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Maybe not but this is irrelevant because the CORE claim you both make is identical, which is the existence of a non human supernatural intelligence responsible for the creation and/or subsequent maintenance of our universe. So you do not get to distance yourself from them so easily.

And given the strength of numbers you each have, and have together when summed... you would think at least one of you would get around to substantiating the claims!



And again I simply see this as a cop out. You have no substantiation for the claims so you revert to this slogan to get out of that. You keep playing this "I will not evidence my claims nor do I think I have to" card as a cop out. However the fact is you have come out espousing your position on a public DISCUSSION forum and you are making entirely unsubstantiated claims. You therefore put the onus on yourself to evidence your claims, regardless of how many times you cry "but I do not see why I have to".

The fact is if we let people get away with crying such things, then anyone can claim anything at all, then just say "Its a persons own responsibility to find evidence for my claims". Tosh I am afraid. Thankfully the rest of the world does not work in this fashion. Can you imagine if statistics agencies, prosecution lawyers, scientists and more could all just trot out whatever the hell they liked and then just claim that it is up to everyone else to verify it? We would be in chaos.

No, if you want to come on to a discussion forum espousing your notions that there is some kind of god, then be prepared to be asked to back up those claims. Cop outs are rarely tolerated on forums such as this. There was another thread recently locked talking about why people are so hostile to claims like this and I pointed out that one of the reasons is people like you think they can get away with claiming any notion they want, as often as they want, where they want, and be let off actually substantiating what they say in any way. If there is hostility towards people like yourself it is CAUSED by people like yourself in how you go about discourse and insulting peoples intelligence by making grandeous and baseless claims and then doing all kinds of linguistic somersaults to get out of backing up a single thing you say.
What is there to back up? My simple stand is I believe God(swt) exists. It is no concern of mine if nobody else believes the same. I can only state the reasons why I personally believe in His existence and that is based on personal experience. You do not accept that as proof, which I have no issue with. I also stated that a person's belief in God(swt) comes through personal experience and their own searching.

Nobody can show another person God(swt) a person will not believe, unless they find their own reason to believe. I doubt very much if any human has the ability to prove the existence of God(swt) to a person who does not believe in Him.

For what you ask for as proof, I doubt anybody could give you any.

I am not out to convince you or anybody else that God(swt) exists. I can only give you reasons as to why I believe He exists and state that anyone who believes has to find his own reasons to believe. I have further stated a person should not believe based upon what another person has said without their own verification of such.

What I see as evidence of his existence is quite simple. My list of evidence is short although each could be expanded upon:

The fact we even exist
Personal experience
The nature of the Qur'an
The writings of the Prophets(PBUT)

I see the workings of God(swt) in all things from the largest star to the smallest atom, in every flower, every blade of grass,every sunrise and sunset --everything I see, feel, hear, or detect with any of my senses

Sufficient evidence for me. I do not expect you or anyone else to accept it.

I may have nothing to offer that will convince you, and that is not my concern. I am not in the need of convincing you. By the same token, I have not seen anything to convince me that He does not exist. I feel that my prayers are always answered, even if at times I do not like the answers.

I am not out to prove to you that God(swt) exists. However, I suspect you are making an attempt to convince me he does not.
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Old 10-11-2011, 06:21 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 11,382,568 times
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Default Some thoughts along the logical highway....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
What is there to back up? My simple stand is I believe God(swt) exists. It is no concern of mine if nobody else believes the same. I can only state the reasons why I personally believe in His existence and that is based on personal experience.

What I see as evidence of his existence is quite simple. My list of evidence is short although each could be expanded upon:

The fact we even exist
Personal experience
The nature of the Qur'an
The writings of the Prophets(PBUT)

I see the workings of God(swt) in all things from the largest star to the smallest atom, in every flower, every blade of grass,every sunrise and sunset --everything I see, feel, hear, or detect with any of my senses

Sufficient evidence for me. I do not expect you or anyone else to accept it.

I am not out to prove to you that God(swt) exists. However, I suspect you are making an attempt to convince me he does not.
Well, if we're debating His existence, then yes; your statements lack much hard-level utility.

√ The self-awareness aspect is but a side-effect of our own evolved intelligence; if bears, raccoons, snakes, mollusks, etc., all had this self-same awareness (as in "Hey! By golly! I'm HERE! I Exist! Wowsers! I must have been created!" By, natch, a greater Godly entity! Musta been so! And not only that, He looks a lot like me! Wow! Ain't that convenient?").

(Ah... the transparency of it all...)

√ Personal experience? Was it a documented situation that you could honestly and openly test against all the alternative peer-suggested possibilities? And then if so, could you completely and unambigously delete all of them, or did you selectively accept the one(s) you liked the jist of the most?

√ The nature of the Qu'Ran. Again, this seems to me to very much like all those creative interpretations of the bible, where people who aren't entirely sure of it all therefore meet regularly to "interpret" the bible in bible study classes and religious philosophy sessions. And to come to those nice, warm'n'fuzzy co-beliefs.

The Qu'Ran, you will agree, is subject to some level of personal interpretation, no?

√ The writings of The Prophets. Q: is this your interpretation of their writings, of a very personal manner, as it so obviously is with all the interminable and highly variable interpretations of the Christian bible?

As you know, Woodrow, Christians fight regularly about most every detailed aspect of the Holy writings. Just saunter over to the other sub-forum here () and read some of their hostile diatribes! It frightens me! Christians can be scary, don't you agree?

Meantime, such hugely personalized interpretation is hardly the case when considering how, for instance, DNA co-links to it's various constituent molecules, or how it might interact with a designer or naturally occurring enzyme, which adapted over long periods of time specifically to react with said molecule.

Or, the DNA and protein electrophoresis-based lineage of some particular animal, like the ancient but now long-gone European cave bear, whose family history was accurately coordinated with artifact and archeological/paleontological dating? Which thus provided a highly accurate and exact story of when it arrived in and around Munich undt "Svabia", for instance, but which was significantly disturbed 25,000 years later when an all-new, much modified DNA migrant cave bear lineage showed up in the record?

And the resulting cross-breeding created a new sub-species of bear, en route to an all new species much later? Like that? That level of undeniable, unambiguous precision? The one I tend to trust?

I do appreciate your fundamental beliefs, Woodrow! But I see them solely as a personal philosophy thing which you utilize to better understand your place in your own culture, your teachings to others in spiritual need, your understanding of personal and spiritual relations and your own determination of the future of you, your family, your fellow worshippers and your deity. (Mohammed wasn't, of course, any such thing...).

But you can, I hope, also respect that the hard evidence for Him, in whatever form, is not really so credible (I mean, given the utter incredibility of it all, esp. when compared with my (....ahem...) high quality evidence!).

Yes?
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Old 10-11-2011, 10:04 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,305,624 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post

I do appreciate your fundamental beliefs, Woodrow! But I see them solely as a personal philosophy thing which you utilize to better understand your place in your own culture, your teachings to others in spiritual need, your understanding of personal and spiritual relations and your own determination of the future of you, your family, your fellow worshippers and your deity. (Mohammed wasn't, of course, any such thing...).

But you can, I hope, also respect that the hard evidence for Him, in whatever form, is not really so credible (I mean, given the utter incredibility of it all, esp. when compared with my (....ahem...) high quality evidence!).

Yes?
I am pleased you know we do not worship Muhammad(PBUH) nor see him as a Deity.

I will try to come back and address the rest of your thoughtful reply after I get some sleep. Although in the Morning My wife and I have to go to Fargo, so it may be Thursday before I get back.

As for the culture I live in it is essentially Lakotah Sioux. My wife and I are the only Muslims within a 100 mile radius. the closest Mosque is 224 miles from us, except for the online Mosque I started for the rest of us who are scattered in North Dakota or when enough people arrive for me to have community prayers in my house. ( I get to be Imam ) I actually try to have Jummah services at my home on Friday's. My typical sermon lasts 15 minutes or less and mostly revolves around the need for us Muslim to show through our actions that we are a people of Peace.

I suspect the evaluation of evidence will always be a personal thing. What we each see as evidence may or may not be seen as such by others.
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Old 10-11-2011, 10:16 PM
 
13,334 posts, read 25,596,053 times
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Again I say, there are people who need to believe in a god idea. There isn't any proof, never has been. People claim personal experiences that told them there is a real god, and my experience is that there is no such thing. I do think if someone is raised with that framework, they will experience it as real, especially under duress (fear, addiction, despair) but that doesn't make it real. It is why I feel I understand a person's need to believe.
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Old 10-11-2011, 11:53 PM
 
Location: Southern Minnesota
5,990 posts, read 11,579,296 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littlewitness View Post
Shalom, and listen up rifle friend...ya'lls version of truth is grey, bleak, and ends with nothing.
Lights out, party's over and die...forever.
Absolutely. Death is the end . . . there is no reason to believe any part of me will survive my own demise. Christianity's treatment of death is one of the main reasons why I left the religion. The concept of an afterlife is absurd and the implications of it on the sanctity of human life are nothing short of disgusting.

Quote:
The fight you fight is therefore full of sound and fury signifying nothing. If your life ends with no G-d, what is the point of your fight? Let go old man and let G-d...
Life is ultimately meaningless, but it's fun and interesting. It sure beats the alternative, at least. I don't see any reason why my life should include imaginary beings (been there, done that).
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Old 10-12-2011, 12:52 AM
 
1,220 posts, read 782,347 times
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Default The Truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by brightdoglover View Post
Again I say, there are people who need to believe in a god idea. There isn't any proof, never has been. People claim personal experiences that told them there is a real god, and my experience is that there is no such thing. I do think if someone is raised with that framework, they will experience it as real, especially under duress (fear, addiction, despair) but that doesn't make it real. It is why I feel I understand a person's need to believe.
Shalom...your assumption that there is no proof of G-d's existence is not valid without proof...
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Old 10-12-2011, 12:58 AM
 
Location: Metromess
11,798 posts, read 21,999,820 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I do not believe in blind faith. I adhere to the idea that a person should not, believe something unless they themselves have found reason to believe it is true. We should not believe nor disbelieve based only upon what others tell us.

None of us should ever be able to use the excuse that somebody misled us. When we are misled, we do so by being too lazy to not search on our own.
I hope that you are not stating that my nonbelief is based upon what others have told me, or that I am lazy, simply because I did not come to the same conclusions as you have. I would find that quite offensive.
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Old 10-12-2011, 01:03 AM
 
1,220 posts, read 782,347 times
Reputation: 122
Default The Truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by northstar22 View Post
Absolutely. Death is the end . . . there is no reason to believe any part of me will survive my own demise. Christianity's treatment of death is one of the main reasons why I left the religion. The concept of an afterlife is absurd and the implications of it on the sanctity of human life are nothing short of disgusting.



Life is ultimately meaningless, but it's fun and interesting. It sure beats the alternative, at least. I don't see any reason why my life should include imaginary beings (been there, done that).
Shalom...if death is the end of every thing that there is, why does life continue?
Stop blaming Christianity for your turning away...every man is responsible for his own actions...
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Old 10-12-2011, 02:19 AM
 
13,334 posts, read 25,596,053 times
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I find believers often state that "hope" is a key part of their belief system, or that not believing makes one hopeless. "Hope" that you don't end, that you will see departed others? I've heard more than one believer say that, if there isn't an afterlife, they might as well kill themselves, because life would be so hopeless. (huh?)
This fear of death, of ending... I think Buddhists might have a better hold on this, except for the ones who believe in reincarnation. More of the same, that.
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Old 10-12-2011, 05:41 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,305,624 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by catman View Post
I hope that you are not stating that my nonbelief is based upon what others have told me, or that I am lazy, simply because I did not come to the same conclusions as you have. I would find that quite offensive.
I apologize if my comment sounded like that was what I was implying. I was speaking in Generalities and stating we all are responsible for our own choices and nobody should believe or not believe, based upon the words of another person.
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