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Old 09-15-2011, 01:11 PM
 
2,996 posts, read 4,925,812 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertPox View Post
Nah, I don't think I will.

This was all explained pretty well in 8th-grade science classes. If not, you could've learned it through your own due diligence, by reading scientific journals and texts, or by using Google. We are not here to educate you on basic science.

And furthermore, you've answered NONE of the questions put to you.

So bugger off.
Actually, I cant find any scientific evidences ...only speculation and unproven theories on origin of the Cosmos, the many Phsyics Constants that work in flawless unison , and origin of the Pond Protozoa. Are you sure your ideology/atheistic worldview isnt based on faith ? Faith that natural means did it all ?

 
Old 09-15-2011, 01:15 PM
 
2,996 posts, read 4,925,812 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertPox View Post
Yes, you should be banned for misstating people's replies maliciously and repeatedly, and for trolling.
Im glad that City Data disagrees . Looking at the collective responses given in this Thread by those considering themselves atheists...I havent misstated , misconstrued, nor maliciously stated anything . Further, i didnt troll since i started this thread and am required to return to it to further the discussion.

Im just trying to understand the faith associated with the atheistic worldview and am expecting some sort of scientific evidence which is infused with that faith. And, I think it is disengenuous of you to orphan the original post by resorting to hostility . Lets get back to the original post, and discuss the process from atheism to agnosticism in conjunction with if atheism is even an accurate bonified position . Thanks for staying on topic .
 
Old 09-15-2011, 01:26 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,915 posts, read 31,810,788 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 007.5 View Post
Do you also KNOW that extreme examples of Design and precise Engineering always require intelligence with a Will for them to come about, continue to exist, and successfully accomplish a specific purpose ? Or, do you know this sounds like the workings of blind chance Naturalism ?
Hilarious...Who told you that evolution works by blind chance? You really should educate yourself before spewing nonsense about something you know nothing about.
 
Old 09-15-2011, 01:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill View Post
I notice you didn't answer my question: Do you have to have absolute knowledge that a God does exist in order to be a theist? Or do you have a double standard here?

But to your point, there are devices found in nature without design or pricse engineering that are at least as complex as anything created by man. In fact, many of them are far more so. So my answer is no, there is no requirement for a will and intelligence to create complex designs.
1. Sorry for not answering your question before. Your question is off topic for this particular thread but if youd like to posit this question in Christianity, id be please to dialgoue with you about it.

2. Please list examples of non intelligence creating extreme complexity equal to or exceeding : the specified complexity found in DNA instructions , or, the 150+ Physics Constants all working collaboratively for our Home Planet to be here , sustained, and perfectly conducive to our human anatomy which itself has dozens of intricate systems working in unison . If you cant find a suitable example...then please use this far far lesser example of complexity for your treatise :

Non intelligent natural means using raw materials to blindly create a fully functioning Bicycle . Thanks in advance.
 
Old 09-15-2011, 01:42 PM
 
2,996 posts, read 4,925,812 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
While atheism is NOT anti - supernaturalism - it is merely not believing in any gods, I see what you are getting at here. Yes, it does imply that we accept naturalist and materialist theory. The reason is that we see the material and natural world around us and science has discovered the mechanisms behind the way it works. We really see no need to suppose that a mind in behind it. We do not look at nature and see a jumbo jet assembled by a whirlwind, a watch lying on the beach or a carved artefact. What would you think of someone who said that mount Rushmore grew from a seed? Absurdity of course. It was made and someone clearly made it.

But a tree or frog wasn't made. They grew from seed and cell. We know this is so and therefore the comparison with manufactured artefacts is false and misleading.

Is this making sense or not, so far? If it is then we can proceed to why we don't even see the need to suppose a mind behind the seed or cell.
1. Absence of a Diety (implying intelligent causes) defaults to Natural Causes or anti/non supernaturalism.

2. By what Natural Source are you positing produced a highly complex cosmos which exudes tremendous engineering... some Physics Constants with a critical tolerance leeway of 10^150 th power ( e.g. the cosmological constant) otherwise Earth isnt here and neither are we ?

3. If its absurdity that the huge rocks of Mt. Rushmore grew from a seed, why is it NOT absurd that non-material personality grew ultimately from huge rocks/hydrogen gas/and helium in keeping with an atheistic worldview for origins ?

4 A Frog WAS made/constructed from a physical seed having all the required DNA material in it which told it how to form , grow, develop , etc... Same for plants .

5. What natural source or process is responsible for the very first DNA structure which was needed for the very first living protozoan ... which came about unwilled ? It is estimated by nano-biologists that the very first simplest of all cells had enough DNA information (specified complexity) in it to the equivalent of 1,000 complete sets of encyclopedias . Please list the natural source or process. Thanks for your consideration.
 
Old 09-15-2011, 01:47 PM
 
Location: OKC
5,426 posts, read 5,736,247 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 007.5 View Post
1. Sorry for not answering your question before. Your question is off topic for this particular thread but if youd like to posit this question in Christianity, id be please to dialgoue with you about it.

2. Please list examples of non intelligence creating extreme complexity equal to or exceeding : the specified complexity found in DNA instructions , or, the 150+ Physics Constants all working collaboratively for our Home Planet to be here , sustained, and perfectly conducive to our human anatomy which itself has dozens of intricate systems working in unison . If you cant find a suitable example...then please use this far far lesser example of complexity for your treatise :

Non intelligent natural means using raw materials to blindly create a fully functioning Bicycle . Thanks in advance.
Your question seems equally off topic, given that the topic is: Has anyone here made the journey from atheism to agnosticism ?

But I wont run from your question.

Here ya go:
DNA and the mixing of two DNA strings to create a human being is a good example of an extremely complex product made without an intelligent designer.

The Bicycle had an intelligent designer, for example, but the human being was created by natural forces, and not by any conscious thought process.
 
Old 09-15-2011, 02:01 PM
 
2,996 posts, read 4,925,812 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill View Post
DNA and the mixing of two DNA strings to create a human being is a good example of an extremely complex product made without an intelligent designer.

The Bicycle had an intelligent designer, for example, but the human being was created by natural forces, and not by any conscious thought process.
1. The actual co-founder of the DNA structure , famous atheist Biologist Dr. Francis Crick, affirmed the accurate calculation of this occuring by naturalism, at a faith-busting 1 in 10^40,000 th probability. (Source : Life Itself book by Dr. Francis Crick) . What IS the only other alternative ?

2. So a mechanical Bicycle having say...25 distinct and seperate parts requires a willful personal Designer/Creator, but a fully functioning Human Being having 60 major anatomical systems all working in unison with one another including a Brain that is so complex Scientists have yet to figure out how it all works , and which contains the informational capacity equal to the entire U.S. Library of Congress..........was produced unwilled/without a single act of intelligent input/ from accidental compilaitons ...which 'just happened' to accomplish a very specific end result as extraordinary as human life ??? Is this the reasonable and rational example of atheism that you or someone else addressed earlier in the thread ?!

Lets cut to the chase : How come you dont want an intelligent personal theistic Creator to exist ? What is your particular personal motive ? Thanks for sharing .
 
Old 09-15-2011, 02:04 PM
 
2,996 posts, read 4,925,812 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill View Post
Your question seems equally off topic, given that the topic is: Has anyone here made the journey from atheism to agnosticism ?

But I wont run from your question.

Here ya go:
DNA and the mixing of two DNA strings to create a human being is a good example of an extremely complex product made without an intelligent designer.

The Bicycle had an intelligent designer, for example, but the human being was created by natural forces, and not by any conscious thought process.
Proclaimed atheists in this thread keep trying to derail the original post by asking me to re-focus the subject matter to God/Theism/the Cosmos, etc.........when it was not the OP . Lets get back to the original subject matter.
 
Old 09-15-2011, 02:21 PM
 
Location: OKC
5,426 posts, read 5,736,247 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 007.5 View Post
1. The actual co-founder of the DNA structure , famous atheist Biologist Dr. Francis Crick, affirmed the accurate calculation of this occuring by naturalism, at a faith-busting 1 in 10^40,000 th probability. (Source : Life Itself book by Dr. Francis Crick) . What IS the only other alternative ?
A 10^40,000 probability isn't faith busting at all, if you understand we are given 10^400,000 chances. While both of our numbers may not be exactly accurate, that is the basic premise evolution that you fail to account for.

Besides, the "alternative" you speak of is that a magical person was able to use magic to make it all happen. What is the probability of that happening?

A faith-busting zero percent chance.

So given a choice between the improbable and the impossible, the improbable is more likely.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 007.5 View Post

2. So a mechanical Bicycle having say...25 distinct and seperate parts requires a willful personal Designer/Creator, but a fully functioning Human Being having 60 major anatomical systems all working in unison with one another including a Brain that is so complex Scientists have yet to figure out how it all works , and which contains the informational capacity equal to the entire U.S. Library of Congress..........was produced unwilled/without a single act of intelligent input/ from accidental compilaitons ...which 'just happened' to accomplish a very specific end result as extraordinary as human life ??? Is this the reasonable and rational example of atheism that you or someone else addressed earlier in the thread ?! .
That is pretty close to correct. Natural forces, given so much more time and opportunity, can create far more complex products than humans are yet able to devise.



Quote:
Originally Posted by 007.5 View Post
Lets cut to the chase : How come you dont want an intelligent personal theistic Creator to exist ? What is your particular personal motive ? Thanks for sharing .
I wouldn't care much one way or another if there were an intelligent personal theistic creator. After all, he could be dead by now, or have willed himself out of existance, and the effect would be the same for me.

And if there was a really cool creator, and I could live forever, I would love that.

But I'm not the kind of person who can believe things just because I want to. I look at the evidence, and draw the natural conclusion.

In this case, for an omnipotent God to exist, everything we know about science would have to be wrong. Since I don't think everything we know about science is wrong, I don't believe a God exists.

Last edited by Boxcar Overkill; 09-15-2011 at 02:30 PM..
 
Old 09-15-2011, 02:56 PM
 
Location: Dallas, Texas
1,807 posts, read 2,167,795 times
Reputation: 970
How many times can we explain what we mean by "know" to this guy before we all realize he's being purposefully obtuse? Besides, he thinks women should be raped, so who cares what he thinks.
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