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Old 09-24-2011, 05:04 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
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An error us theists make too often is we assume and atheist is atheist because he does not want to believe in God(swt). We fail to understand they are so because they have no reason to believe.


It is just that an atheist has no proof of God(swt). A fool is a person who sees and believes in a proof, but refuses to accept it. A fool can also be a person who believes in something they do not find any verification or reason of.

There are both Theist and Atheist fools. but the fact a person is either one does not mean they are a fool.

Either of us acts like a fool when we automatically assume the other is a fool because of his belief or disbelief.

We all have the responsibility to always search for all things and to verify what we find.We all have to be active participants in our own lives and not think we can simply float down the river without knowing the river we are on.
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Old 09-24-2011, 06:26 AM
 
Location: Florida
19,775 posts, read 19,880,941 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Few brave Christians will throw this one out from time to time from Psalm 14.1 in reference to atheists (of course you can't call THEM the same thing without being edited, but I digress). Anyway, the scripture is rather interesting to me now I am pondering it. In that ancient world of superstitions and competing deities, were there really people who did NOT believe in some god??? It's hard to imagine, but I guess this implies that even in an ancient world saturated with every type of deity known to man, there were apparently people who knew better. A little closer look at the passage says that "the fool" says it in his heart which causes one to wonder how the writer knew what people were saying in their heads (heart).
I have seen it posted that "back in those days everybody believed' implying atheism is a relatively new thing perhaps brought about by advancements in science.
It's not at all difficult for me to believe that there were people for whom the idea of god(s) was a doubtful thing although, as suggested by these other posts, it's not probably something many would admit to and, if they did, were probably considered to be anything from odd to dangerous.
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Old 09-24-2011, 06:37 AM
 
2,854 posts, read 1,527,677 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Few brave Christians will throw this one out from time to time from Psalm 14.1 in reference to atheists (of course you can't call THEM the same thing without being edited, but I digress). Anyway, the scripture is rather interesting to me now I am pondering it. In that ancient world of superstitions and competing deities, were there really people who did NOT believe in some god??? It's hard to imagine, but I guess this implies that even in an ancient world saturated with every type of deity known to man, there were apparently people who knew better. A little closer look at the passage says that "the fool" says it in his heart which causes one to wonder how the writer knew what people were saying in their heads (heart).
originally it said:
the fool has said in his heart 'the always existing one does not exist'.

thats pretty much the definition of foolishness.

http://www.theoi.com/Protogenos/Khronos.html

Khronos was represented in Greco-Roman mosaic as Aion, "eternity" personified. He stands against the sky holding a wheel inscribed with the signs of the zodiac. Beneath his feet Gaia (Mother Earth) is usually seen reclining. The poet Nonnus describes Aion as an old man with long white hair and beard. Mosaics, however, present a youthful figure
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Old 09-25-2011, 01:21 AM
 
39,023 posts, read 10,812,637 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
An error us theists make too often is we assume and atheist is atheist because he does not want to believe in God(swt). We fail to understand they are so because they have no reason to believe.


It is just that an atheist has no proof of God(swt). A fool is a person who sees and believes in a proof, but refuses to accept it. A fool can also be a person who believes in something they do not find any verification or reason of.

There are both Theist and Atheist fools. but the fact a person is either one does not mean they are a fool.

Either of us acts like a fool when we automatically assume the other is a fool because of his belief or disbelief.

We all have the responsibility to always search for all things and to verify what we find.We all have to be active participants in our own lives and not think we can simply float down the river without knowing the river we are on.
You're good. Your understanding of atheism is uncommonly fair amongst theists. Of course we can all be fools (or made to look like fools) at times (I certainly can). But the basis of atheism is logical and evidentially reasonable so that isn't foolish. Theism (I argue) is not so logically sound or reasonable, though I have to say that a convincing case can be made, if one is willing to give a bit of credit to the unknowns and unexplained.
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Old 09-25-2011, 08:00 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
You're good. Your understanding of atheism is uncommonly fair amongst theists. Of course we can all be fools (or made to look like fools) at times (I certainly can). But the basis of atheism is logical and evidentially reasonable so that isn't foolish. Theism (I argue) is not so logically sound or reasonable, though I have to say that a convincing case can be made, if one is willing to give a bit of credit to the unknowns and unexplained.
Thank you for your kind words, peaceful coexistence is better than seeking justification for anger. People can and will disagree about many things, but disagreement need not be out of hatred or malice, nor result in such. I appreciate people I disagree with, as disagreement is often the first step in learning.

A big cause of hostile debates is too often we have the tendency of pointing out what we believe to be the error and cause why the other person believes or disbelieves as they do.

If we all could just stick to pointing out our own reasons for our own opinions, the world of internet debating would become more peaceful. Belief and disbelief are the result of searching and finding. From there we expand onto verifying what we have found. For those of us who concentrate on showing the "errors" of the other person we are not only offensive, we are wasting everyone's time, including our own.
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Old 09-25-2011, 10:23 AM
 
Location: NC, USA
7,088 posts, read 13,039,288 times
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Originally Posted by catman View Post
Since a person is often judged by the company he keeps, I am pleased that the sort of people who bring that verse up think of me as a fool.
wouldn't let me rep ya for this one, but.....I do agree!
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Old 09-25-2011, 11:29 AM
 
39,023 posts, read 10,812,637 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Thank you for your kind words, peaceful coexistence is better than seeking justification for anger. People can and will disagree about many things, but disagreement need not be out of hatred or malice, nor result in such. I appreciate people I disagree with, as disagreement is often the first step in learning.

A big cause of hostile debates is too often we have the tendency of pointing out what we believe to be the error and cause why the other person believes or disbelieves as they do.

If we all could just stick to pointing out our own reasons for our own opinions, the world of internet debating would become more peaceful. Belief and disbelief are the result of searching and finding. From there we expand onto verifying what we have found. For those of us who concentrate on showing the "errors" of the other person we are not only offensive, we are wasting everyone's time, including our own.
True, but (and that is just what I'm doing here and by implication you did in you post ) if the reasons for holding opinions are challenged, it is hard to explain without arguing that the other fellow's opinions might require consideration.

It isn't disagreement we should avoid but the discussion getting angry and abusive. True, that's hard if strongly held feelings are involved.
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Old 09-25-2011, 12:40 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
True, but (and that is just what I'm doing here and by implication you did in you post ) if the reasons for holding opinions are challenged, it is hard to explain without arguing that the other fellow's opinions might require consideration.

It isn't disagreement we should avoid but the discussion getting angry and abusive. True, that's hard if strongly held feelings are involved.

It is hard to avoid anger when feelings get involved. But, the nice thing about forums is one has a chance to look at old posts and see just how idiotic a person looks when they debate with feelings and not facts. Gets to be a strong incentive to want to avoid posting emotions.

Honest, sincere disagreement based on facts often results in friendship and discourages hatred. True standing up for what one believes to be true earns respect. Slandering/insulting what another person believes to be true earns ridicule and loss of credibility.
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Old 09-25-2011, 03:39 PM
 
Location: OKC
5,426 posts, read 5,726,808 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by look3467 View Post
A fool in the context of: missing out!

It would be like driving across Arizona in the middle of the Summer heat just to discover at the end of the trip that the car had an air-conditioner.

Missing out on the trip through life without the blessings of God upon us can be hell, and that being without any Air conditioning to help us bare the heat.

So, define a fool any way you like, the fact remains, a fool denies things that would help.

Blessings, AJ
Many of us used to be Christians, and we used to use all the same flowery language to describe the blissful joy of being moved by the spirit. But we were mostly lying.

Faith can't move mountains, nor cure the ill, and in most cases it doesn't bring much happiness. Christians lie a lot about the benefits of Christianity, and then when it comes time to put up or shut up, they'll always say, "it doesn't work like that."
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Old 09-25-2011, 06:00 PM
 
Location: Redding, Ca
1,240 posts, read 1,056,668 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill View Post
Many of us used to be Christians, and we used to use all the same flowery language to describe the blissful joy of being moved by the spirit. But we were mostly lying.

Faith can't move mountains, nor cure the ill, and in most cases it doesn't bring much happiness. Christians lie a lot about the benefits of Christianity, and then when it comes time to put up or shut up, they'll always say, "it doesn't work like that."
I have been a believer in Jesus throughout my life as a Catholic, a Baptist and as a non denominational.

I have dealt with all sorts of beliefs and I can testify, I was never moved from the position of trusting in God to the fullest.

Because mankind fails to maintain a good report with its claims on Christianity, does in no way diminish the existence of God.

here on this forum and on others like this one, I speak to all sorts of belief systems.

It doesn't matter to me what you believe for that is totally up to you to choose.

But if you want to discuss the merits of knowing who and what God is in my life, and how He is my constant complaining during the good times as well as the bad times.

Because of you, "used to be Christians" does in no way sway me to believe that Jesus and God are not what I claim them to be.

It is my gain and your loss.

For if you are looking for tangible proofs of His existence, well, I'm sorry for you.

It is by faith without any tangible proofs that he exists, and that is precisely what He desires.

Your faith and nothing of your works is all that is required.

For all the work of righteousness, He has already performed it for you.

Blessings, AJ
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