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Old 10-31-2011, 08:48 AM
 
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I'm having trouble remembering what the original question was...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astron1000 View Post
Do you think atheism can be equated with (or perhaps at least a subset of) logical positivism? This is not a trick question. Just wondering about other's thoughts.
And Boxcar's reply was pretty succinct:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill View Post
I would say positivism is consistent with, but neither necessary nor sufficient to support, atheism.
since then it's been a pretty free - ranging conversation. Have fun.
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Old 10-31-2011, 10:14 AM
 
3,614 posts, read 3,052,976 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
I'm having trouble remembering what the original question was...



And Boxcar's reply was pretty succinct:



since then it's been a pretty free - ranging conversation. Have fun.
Well, someone in here took this discussion deep down the rabbit hole. What is positivism? Was that already covered?
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Old 10-31-2011, 08:16 PM
 
39,222 posts, read 10,895,806 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Konraden View Post
Well, someone in here took this discussion deep down the rabbit hole. What is positivism? Was that already covered?
Pretty much. Chango and astron in #3 and 4 showed what relation there was between Logical positivism and atheism and then Tigetmax wanted to know the logical basis for atheism and we haven't looked back since.
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Old 11-01-2011, 05:36 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,434,870 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
Yet again we get farther and farther off in the weeds...

How about this, I will sum up my points against a Biblically defined, objective morality.
I understand that this may not cover every aspect of your view concerning this topic, but that is because you have refused to articulate any coherent understanding of said morality, and why it is consistent and logical.
Where have I refused to answer any of your questions?

I'm working up a response to post #104. Your posts tend to be wordy and laced with unwarranted presuppositions which leaves me little choice but to address them piece meal in order to preserve some sense of clarity.

I must respectfully ask you to retract or soften this statement. I don't have to put up with this sort of nonsense - nor do I intend to.
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Old 11-01-2011, 06:30 PM
 
3,404 posts, read 2,254,157 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
Where have I refused to answer any of your questions?

I'm working up a response to post #104. Your posts tend to be wordy and laced with unwarranted presuppositions which leaves me little choice but to address them piece meal in order to preserve some sense of clarity.

I must respectfully ask you to retract or soften this statement. I don't have to put up with this sort of nonsense - nor do I intend to.
With all due respect, I think the best thing to do is to take a step back and try to outline your view of objective morality: what axioms logically define it, what is revealed and what is logically inferred, and what basis you have for claiming objectivity.

The problem is with our long chains of posts, we have really lost sight of the original topic and are going farther and farther afield. I have tried to take a step back and articulate my issues with what I perceive to be the objective morality you are espousing, but I am having to make a lot of assumptions about what you are saying.

I have not said that you are not answering my questions, but you have not made an effort to fully articulate your position. It is very difficult to have a discussion about your view of absolute morality when you have really only hinted at it in bits and pieces, thus the presuppositions.

I am interested in seeing your viewpoint on this. I have not been able to construct for myself a logically consistent transcendent objective morality based on scripture, but I am interested to see how you approach it. So far we have been getting mired down in the nitpicking and I still don't understand your position.

NoCapo
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Old 11-02-2011, 05:50 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,434,870 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
With all due respect, I think the best thing to do is to take a step back and try to outline your view of objective morality: what axioms logically define it, what is revealed and what is logically inferred, and what basis you have for claiming objectivity.
I view objective morality as a guideline of that which IS defined as objectively right and objectively wrong. Objective morality IS because God IS. God IS the standard in the sense that he doesn't arbitrarily decide what is good. In other words, God cannot change his own nature. His nature cannot change and, by logical extension, that which is in principle right or wrong cannot change.

Could you be more specific with regard to what sort of "axioms" you're looking for? ...for example?

My belief is that God's standards are revealed in scripture. Logic is how we are able to understand revelation with respect to whether or not it is true and coherent.

My basis for claiming the existence of objective morality is the existence of God and the truth of scripture. These objective standards would exist even if no human being ever existed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
The problem is with our long chains of posts, we have really lost sight of the original topic and are going farther and farther afield. I have tried to take a step back and articulate my issues with what I perceive to be the objective morality you are espousing, but I am having to make a lot of assumptions about what you are saying.
I really see no need for you to make any assumptions...just ask questions, I promise not to bite. I would much prefer providing up-front clarification rather than being forced to pick through various presumptions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
I have not said that you are not answering my questions, but you have not made an effort to fully articulate your position. It is very difficult to have a discussion about your view of absolute morality when you have really only hinted at it in bits and pieces, thus the presuppositions.
Where have you asked me to "fully" articulate anything?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
I am interested in seeing your viewpoint on this. I have not been able to construct for myself a logically consistent transcendent objective morality based on scripture, but I am interested to see how you approach it. So far we have been getting mired down in the nitpicking and I still don't understand your position.
It takes two to tango. I can't concisely move forward with a discussion that's based on false assumptions.
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Old 11-03-2011, 07:02 PM
 
3,404 posts, read 2,254,157 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
I view objective morality as a guideline of that which IS defined as objectively right and objectively wrong. Objective morality IS because God IS. God IS the standard in the sense that he doesn't arbitrarily decide what is good. In other words, God cannot change his own nature. His nature cannot change and, by logical extension, that which is in principle right or wrong cannot change.

Could you be more specific with regard to what sort of "axioms" you're looking for? ...for example?

My belief is that God's standards are revealed in scripture. Logic is how we are able to understand revelation with respect to whether or not it is true and coherent.

My basis for claiming the existence of objective morality is the existence of God and the truth of scripture. These objective standards would exist even if no human being ever existed.
In general terms, I am trying to understand how you go from these ideas to specific application. Obviously what you have written above encompasses some of your axioms (God exists, The Bible is true, etc...) I would also include as axioms the moral principles that are given by revelation. The next step would be to have moral principles that can be logically applied to the axiom to cover specific issues not addressed by revelation.

As far as specific questions, I'll throw some out, but my intent is not necessarily for you to try to answer a list of specific questions, but to formulate a framework that encompasses these issues. Basically, things to think about as you flesh out your description of God's absolute morality, not in any particular order...

  • Is morality defined by the character of God or by his commandments?
  • Is scripture a reliable guide to the character of God?
  • Is God's objective morality known by man?
  • Can God's objective morality be known by man?
  • Is God's objective morality unchanging?
  • If God commands an action, is it by definition moral?
  • Does God's objective morality apply to actions only, or thoughts and attitudes as well?
  • If scriptures appear to contradict concerning the character of God, how do we know which is correct?
  • Can God hold contradictory characteristics that lead to conflicting moral principles?
  • How do we objectively prioritise conflicting moral principles?
  • How do we apply logic to revelation to determine its truth in an objective manner?
I am sure as you flesh out your ideas, more questions will come up, but this is what I can think of based on what you have started with.

NoCapo
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Old 11-05-2011, 09:28 AM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,434,870 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
Is morality defined by the character of God or by his commandments?
A false dilemma. Under the orthodox Christian model, God's commandments are a mere expression of God's character.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
Is scripture a reliable guide to the character of God?
If the Bible is reliable would it not naturally follow that what the Bible informs us about God's character is also reliable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
Is God's objective morality known by man?
Yes, that which has been revealed can be known due to the fact that it has been revealed. Is this list comprehensive? You tell me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
Can God's objective morality be known by man?
Yes. However, is that which has been revealed also comprehensive? Does it need to be comprehensive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
Is God's objective morality unchanging?
God's moral principles are unchanging.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
If God commands an action, is it by definition moral?
According to my understanding of the orthodox view, yes, it is moral because it will be a natural extension of God's character.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
Does God's objective morality apply to actions only, or thoughts and attitudes as well?
Being that sin is a problem of the heart, I would say that it actually applies more to thoughts and attitudes than it does actions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
If scriptures appear to contradict concerning the character of God, how do we know which is correct?
We should closely investigate ANYTHING in scripture that appears to be contradictory. I would also say that the mere appearance of contradiction doesn't automatically make it so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
Can God hold contradictory characteristics that lead to conflicting moral principles?
Logically, no. God cannot be honest and liar at the same time and in the same sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
How do we objectively prioritise conflicting moral principles?
Could you provide an example?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
How do we apply logic to revelation to determine its truth in an objective manner?
The same way that we apply logic to determine the truth of anything.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Do you agree with my previous assertion concerning nihilism? That either God exists and everything makes sense, or God does not exist and everything is ultimately nonsense?
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Old 11-05-2011, 05:57 PM
 
3,404 posts, read 2,254,157 times
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Most of your answers can be folded in to your outine of your absolute morality as is, so I am going to wait to address those further until you have a chance to fold them in to your outline of this morality.

There are a couple that I wanted to address, as I think you missed the point of my original question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
If the Bible is reliable would it not naturally follow that what the Bible informs us about God's character is also reliable?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
Yes, that which has been revealed can be known due to the fact that it has been revealed. Is this list comprehensive? You tell me.

Yes. However, is that which has been revealed also comprehensive? Does it need to be comprehensive?
These are questions for you, not me. I don't believe, remember?


Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
The same way that we apply logic to determine the truth of anything.
I am asking specifically about determining the veracity of divine revelation.
If I tell you that the fire marshall has demanded that you evacuate a building, you could ask a witness to back me up, or you could ask the fire marshall's office to verify what I said.
If I tell you that God told me something, how would you verify that my claim was true? What if I had other people who also claimed divine revelation supporting me?
This was the thrust of my question. If you are going to claim that God's absolute morality is divinely revealed you need a way to verify that revelation. Otherwise your belief is placed in the hands of charlatans and lunatics who can claim anything they want and cry, "God told me so!"

I look forward to seeing how you tie all this together.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
Do you agree with my previous assertion concerning nihilism? That either God exists and everything makes sense, or God does not exist and everything is ultimately nonsense?
No, I do not. First I don't understand what you mean by "makes sense". Logical consistency does not depend on a deity. Reconciling the world I observe with my personal sense of "rightness" also does not require a deity. I do not believe and I do not feel that, "everything is ultimately nonsense".

I don't understand how this has anything to do with your definition of absolute morality.

NoCapo
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Old 11-05-2011, 07:07 PM
 
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God's morals are in the bible, try reading it sometime, it's fairly shocking. If this is what god deems acceptable then we're in deep crapola.
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