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Old 10-07-2011, 01:02 PM
 
Location: OKC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
What evidence, arguments, data or reasons are there to support the idea of atheism?

Is atheism logically coherent?

His argument was that "does not exist" is the null hypothesis for anything until it is shown to exist.

Thus the null hypothesis for God is "does not exist" until he/she/it is shown to exist.

If your definition of atheism is "a person who does not believe God exist", then it is a logically coherent theory, (even if one disagrees with that conclusion.)
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Old 10-07-2011, 02:16 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
What evidence, arguments, data or reasons are there to support the idea of atheism?

Is atheism logically coherent?
I suppose he means that evidence for "not god" is pretty easy to find:

is the earth a god? No, Earth is natural.

Is god present in evil? No, evil is natural.

Has anything "supernatural" come before him? No, everything he has experienced is natural.

His implied question was: why should he need evidence, arguments, data, or reasons, to REJECT an idea.. .and how can the REJECTION of an idea be an idea itself.

That's like saying that the opposite of having an idea is having another idea, instead of rejecting that specific idea. Which conflicts with the scholarly philosophical laws of identity. To him "the idea that gods exist is an unreasonable one" is the rejection of the idea "gods do exist"; not an idea in it of itself, that needs to be validated. for example: he need not validate his believes when they are merely rejections. In other words, believes need to be validated, but rejecting unvalidated believes does not need to be validated.
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Old 10-07-2011, 02:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Astron1000 View Post
Do you think atheism can be equated with (or perhaps at least a subset of) logical positivism? This is not a trick question. Just wondering about other's thoughts.
Well atheism is not a belief system it is a lack of belief. So when you get into subjects of the IDEA you have to realize REASON which made one an atheist is a bigger than atheism as Sam Harris says it. So logical positivism if anything would be a subset of reason if your reasoning is made up in a way that supports logical positivism.
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Old 10-07-2011, 02:45 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill View Post
If your definition of atheism is "a person who does not believe God exist", then it is a logically coherent theory, (even if one disagrees with that conclusion.)
I'm all ears.
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Old 10-07-2011, 02:51 PM
 
Location: OKC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
I'm all ears.
I'm not sure I understand what you want me to say.

Logical coherency is simply the lack of contradiction within an argument or concept.

A person can "not believe in a God" without inconsistancy, so it is logically coherent.

In fact, it's pretty hard for a statement with one single premise to be internally contradictory.
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Old 10-07-2011, 03:03 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
is the earth a god? No, Earth is natural.
What is the atheistic explanation as to why anything exists, rather than nothing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
Is god present in evil? No, evil is natural.
If one is going to acknowledge the existence of evil, logically, they must also acknowledge the existence of good. As well, they must have the ability to differentiate between the two. How does the atheist do this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
Has anything "supernatural" come before him? No, everything he has experienced is natural.
The term 'natural' has to do with events that are commonly observed. The term 'supernatural' has to do with events that a not observable. There is nothing illogical about the concept of miracles or events that appear to defy natural explanations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
His implied question was: why should he need evidence, arguments, data, or reasons, to REJECT an idea.. .and how can the REJECTION of an idea be an idea itself.
Everyone has a world view. Why should a person who rejects the existence of God be exempted from applying the same criteria to their own world view? It seems to me, that if atheism is true and coherent, then it should stand up to the test better than all the others.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
That's like saying that the opposite of having an idea is having another idea, instead of rejecting that specific idea. Which conflicts with the scholarly philosophical laws of identity. To him "the idea that gods exist is an unreasonable one" is the rejection of the idea "gods do exist"; not an idea in it of itself, that needs to be validated. for example: he need not validate his believes when they are merely rejections. In other words, believes need to be validated, but rejecting unvalidated believes does not need to be validated.
Everyone has a world view. This world view must either include or exclude God. It isn't possible for one to live their entire life without making choices. These decisions will either include or exclude God - there is no middle ground.
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Old 10-07-2011, 03:09 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill View Post
I'm not sure I understand what you want me to say.

Logical coherency is simply the lack of contradiction within an argument or concept.

A person can "not believe in a God" without inconsistency, so it is logically coherent.

In fact, it's pretty hard for a statement with one single premise to be internally contradictory.
Is the atheistic world view coherent? Does it provide coherent answers that theism cannot provide?
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Old 10-07-2011, 03:18 PM
 
Location: OKC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
Is the atheistic world view coherent? Does it provide coherent answers that theism cannot provide?

There is not one, single, atheistic world view. There are several.

Atheism itself does not provide answers except to the single question of whether one believes there is a God.

So how do Atheist believe the world began? There are many different answers, depending on the atheist you are talking to. Same is true for the theist - I'm willing to bet your explaination is somewhat different than a Hindue's, for example.

Is there good and evil, and what do atheist base that upon? Again, just like with theist it would depend upon the atheist you are speaking with.

You can extrapolate nothing from the universe of atheist except that they all happen to not believe in God. The reasons why, and ramifications of that belief are different from atheist to atheist - just like they are with theist.


EDIT: I should mention, since the last time we talked I've had a change of opinion about my own personal stance, and after 20 years of being an atheist I now consider myself agnostic.
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Old 10-07-2011, 03:39 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
Is the atheistic world view coherent? Does it provide coherent answers that theism cannot provide?
Well, when you don't accept: "It isn't understood" or "It can't be understood" as coherent answers, and yet you are desperate for answers...sometimes any answers will do, and you can just pretend to yourself that they are coherent by having faith that they are.

multiverses (infinite regressions),

time-space manifestation (something from nothing (Steven Hawking)),

mathematical projections (fake identity (projection hypothesis)),

supernature (unsubstantiated premise (God did it))

The person we were talking about does not think God believes are as reasonable or coherent as other people think they are.

Coherence means it is consistent by itself; could you imagine a place where supernatural gods don't exist and it wasn't created by a supernatural god? the common scholarly sense is: YES Atheism is coherent... it is metaphysically possible for gods not to exist.

atheism isn't a religion, it isn't out to provide coherent answers.

Besides, the only coherent answers I've heard have been coming from SCIENTISTS, not necessarily ATHEISTS/ or theists. Atheism doesn't contradict science, while the majority of visible or loud theists actively pretend to contradict it.

Most atheists take scientists as their authority, since science is very self-evident and objective. Most theists seem to take the most loud-mouth theist next to them as their authority, instead.

The question you should be asking is: Has science been providing more coherent and useful and accurate answers than religion as a whole has been providing?

the answer to coherence is YES
the answer to usefulness is IT DEPENDS on the motives and desires of the judger, yet as a whole YES
the answer to accuracy seems to be YES

majority of Science is motivated by the Agnostic Humble Spirit,
majority of Religion is motivated by the Stubborn Egotistical Spirit.

Those who believe in the current natural scientific explanations are called PHYSICALISTS, not Atheists. Sometimes, if you really want to insult physics believing atheists, you can call them MATERIALISTS. Physicalists can be Atheist or Theist. Naturalists is the name that physicalist atheists give themselves, and thus it mostly excludes theists, unless they say that God is natural, and can't be supernatural. "God has always followed/established the current laws of nature, and always will" or "God can be known/understood with Science (objective observation and viable mechanism)" or pantheism, "the Universe/Reality is God"

Last edited by LuminousTruth; 10-07-2011 at 04:02 PM..
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Old 10-07-2011, 04:30 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill View Post
Atheism itself does not provide answers except to the single question of whether one believes there is a God.
I wasn't asking about atheism "itself." I asked whether or not the atheistic (non-God) world view (a view that omits God) is logically coherent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill View Post
So how do Atheist believe the world began? There are many different answers, depending on the atheist you are talking to. Same is true for the theist - I'm willing to bet your explaination is somewhat different than a Hindue's, for example.
Do you assume that I fail to realize the different views within atheism and theism? Thanks for equating me with an imbecile.

With regard to my questions and assertions, there is either the God view or the non-God view. Does the non-God (atheistic) view provide coherence? Does it provide more REASONABLE answers than the God (theistic) view?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill View Post
Is there good and evil, and what do atheist base that upon? Again, just like with theist it would depend upon the atheist you are speaking with.
The theist can REASONABLY and LOGICALLY posit the existence of moral absolutes. How does the atheist do this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill View Post
You can extrapolate nothing from the universe of atheist except that they all happen to not believe in God. The reasons why, and ramifications of that belief are different from atheist to atheist - just like they are with theist.
There are an endless number of things that can be extrapolated from the atheistic world view. It's just another world view. As such, it is subjected to that same scrutiny that all world views are subject to. Does it provide the most REASONABLE explanations? Logically, if atheism is coherent and true, then it most certainly should provide the best explanations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill View Post
EDIT: I should mention, since the last time we talked I've had a change of opinion about my own personal stance, and after 20 years of being an atheist I now consider myself agnostic.
Great. Do your decisions include God or do they exclude God?
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