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Old 11-21-2011, 08:55 AM
 
2,996 posts, read 4,925,812 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Now you are just building straw men again. I at no point claimed that atheists do not have "affirmative beliefs". I in fact very clearly said they have many and they are wildly diverse. The issue is with you making up what those beliefs are, based solely on what you know ONE of their beliefs is not, solely so you can troll a forum by deriding such people by assigning them beliefs and positions they do not actually hold.
Did i ever say you specifically did not hold affirmative beliefs vis-a-vis worldview ? I dont believe i have unless you can show otherwise. If you cant, then perhaps its you who is presumptuous (?).

Lastly, it is unreasonable for you to term my City Data rights and privledges as 'trolling' ; the reason there are many sub-titles to City Datas menu is to encourage people to dialogue , share ideas, challenge ideas, and enjoy the experience ; and i certainly enjoy the experience of seeing others try to defend irrationality and quasi-science .
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Old 11-21-2011, 09:02 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,290,725 times
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Originally Posted by 007.5 View Post
Did i ever say you specifically did not hold affirmative beliefs vis-a-vis worldview ?
I never claimed you did. I was responding only to your false claim that atheists claim they have no "affirmative beliefs". Most atheists do and would not claim otherwise.

But while atheists may themselves individually hold any subset of a vast variety of beliefs none of them are a direct link, or caused by, atheism. Atheism itself is merely the rejection of one idea... the idea there is a god. What a person who does not accept the god idea believes is something for you to find out.... not for you to simply make up, assume and straw man in order to troll a forum or call people or their beliefs "irrational".
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Old 11-21-2011, 09:10 AM
 
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Originally Posted by northstar22 View Post
Stop quoting that ridiculous number! As several people here have demonstrated, it is known as Hoyle's fallacy and has been proven false.

If you don't believe us, take a look at Wikipedia: Hoyle's fallacy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You can change colors on your text all you want, but, it doesnt change the actual chance for atheistic first life in the form of a pond protozoa popping into existence from dead raw chemicals within the atmosphere ; there are certain established scientific facts that go into the completion of the so called 'simple' cell by unpurposed accident ... and this shows the enormous impossibility of that every occuring : Did Life Form By Accident ?

It was Hoyle and Wicksramasinghe who made the calculation , with DNA cofounder atheist Dr. Crick affirming it in his popular book called Life Itself.

YES...it is a rediculous number (1 in 10^40,000 th power) since the amount of atoms in the known universe is calculated at roughly 10^74 th power ... but, such is the faith busting requirement of being a true atheist for starters (not including the absurd probability of Darwinian Evolution and a personal finetuned Cosmos resulting from the source of unwilled Nothingness .

Are you going to explain your volitional choice from Theist to Atheist ?
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Old 11-21-2011, 09:20 AM
 
2,996 posts, read 4,925,812 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
I never claimed you did. I was responding only to your false claim that atheists claim they have no "affirmative beliefs". Most atheists do and would not claim otherwise.

But while atheists may themselves individually hold any subset of a vast variety of beliefs none of them are a direct link, or caused by, atheism. Atheism itself is merely the rejection of one idea... the idea there is a god. What a person who does not accept the god idea believes is something for you to find out.... not for you to simply make up, assume and straw man in order to troll a forum or call people or their beliefs "irrational".
Virtually every 'Atheist' ive ever talked with uses the default excuse of 'atheism is just a negative viewpoint and you can prove a negative' which they feel is adequate to escape explaining the affirmative beliefs for a worldview which they DO have . It is oftenh like pulling teeth to get them to share their affirmative beliefs. Certainly youve run across them havent you ?

How can an atheist know there is 'no personal theistic Creator (God) ' ? It would required such a person to have unlimited knowledge and to have explored all reaches of the Cosmos to be certain. So, is the typical atheist mantra even sensible ?

Are you able to detect what constitutes willful design and engineering in something small or something extremely large ? And, if so, have you ever known something so well defined as design to come from anything but a willful intelligent personal Source ? Could i give you a short test to determine if you do ?
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Old 11-21-2011, 11:13 AM
 
Location: Southern Minnesota
5,990 posts, read 11,582,579 times
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Originally Posted by 007.5 View Post

Are you going to explain your volitional choice from Theist to Atheist ?
I will, on a different thread.
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Old 11-21-2011, 11:17 AM
 
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Originally Posted by northstar22 View Post
I will, on a different thread.
Ill be looking it.
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Old 11-21-2011, 06:10 PM
 
Location: Terra firma
1,374 posts, read 1,357,659 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 007.5 View Post
You can change colors on your text all you want, but, it doesnt change the actual chance for atheistic first life in the form of a pond protozoa popping into existence from dead raw chemicals within the atmosphere ; there are certain established scientific facts that go into the completion of the so called 'simple' cell by unpurposed accident ... and this shows the enormous impossibility of that every occuring : Did Life Form By Accident ?

It was Hoyle and Wicksramasinghe who made the calculation , with DNA cofounder atheist Dr. Crick affirming it in his popular book called Life Itself.

YES...it is a rediculous number (1 in 10^40,000 th power) since the amount of atoms in the known universe is calculated at roughly 10^74 th power ... but, such is the faith busting requirement of being a true atheist for starters (not including the absurd probability of Darwinian Evolution and a personal finetuned Cosmos resulting from the source of unwilled Nothingness .

Are you going to explain your volitional choice from Theist to Atheist ?
Hoyle's Fallacy is rejected by evolutionary biologists, since, as the late John Maynard Smith pointed out, "no biologist imagines that complex structures arise in a single step. The modern evolutionary synthesis explains how complex cellular structures evolved by analysing the intermediate steps required for precellular life. It is these intermediate steps that are omitted in creationist arguments, which is the cause of their over-estimating of the improbability of the entire process.

Yes, the number is as ridiculous as the argument and as flawed as the equations that produced it. Crick, it is worth noting, also believes in such bizarre ideas as that life on Earth was seeded from a comet and that insects are smarter than humans (although when listening to the facile arguments of modern creationists I can sometimes imagine this being the case).

If you had been born in Bahgdad you'd be a Muslim, in Delhi a Hindu or a Jain, in Punjab a Sikh, in Hong Kong a Buddhist, in Salt Lake a Mormon, and so on and so forth so the fact that you worship Yahweh is as arbitrary as Hoyle's equations. The only "volitional choice' being made here is your decision to allow flawed and thoroughly debunked arguments to lead you where you wanted to go anyway. It takes courage to break free from mindless tradition and go wherever the evidence leads regardless of the number of comforting illusions smashed along the way. You have been weighed and measured and found wanting.
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Old 11-22-2011, 12:32 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,290,725 times
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Originally Posted by 007.5 View Post
Virtually every 'Atheist' ive ever talked with....
Ah the old "I have no idea what I am talking about but I can invent and imagine some anecdotes to support my own position" trick. Nice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 007.5 View Post
Certainly youve run across them havent you ?
Not one no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 007.5 View Post
How can an atheist know there is 'no personal theistic Creator (God) ' ?
Once again, though I imagine you will ignore it as you usually do because your straw man gives you more leeway to troll.... the claim is not that there is no god. The claim is that there is not a SINGLE reason on offer to think there IS a god.

As long as you hold on to your straw man like a child does a security blanket, you will just be talking past people like me, not with them.
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Old 11-22-2011, 08:02 AM
 
2,996 posts, read 4,925,812 times
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Originally Posted by Zekester View Post
Hoyle's Fallacy is rejected by evolutionary biologists, since, as the late John Maynard Smith pointed out, "no biologist imagines that complex structures arise in a single step. The modern evolutionary synthesis explains how complex cellular structures evolved by analysing the intermediate steps required for precellular life. It is these intermediate steps that are omitted in creationist arguments, which is the cause of their over-estimating of the improbability of the entire process.

Yes, the number is as ridiculous as the argument and as flawed as the equations that produced it. Crick, it is worth noting, also believes in such bizarre ideas as that life on Earth was seeded from a comet and that insects are smarter than humans (although when listening to the facile arguments of modern creationists I can sometimes imagine this being the case).

If you had been born in Bahgdad you'd be a Muslim, in Delhi a Hindu or a Jain, in Punjab a Sikh, in Hong Kong a Buddhist, in Salt Lake a Mormon, and so on and so forth so the fact that you worship Yahweh is as arbitrary as Hoyle's equations. The only "volitional choice' being made here is your decision to allow flawed and thoroughly debunked arguments to lead you where you wanted to go anyway. It takes courage to break free from mindless tradition and go wherever the evidence leads regardless of the number of comforting illusions smashed along the way. You have been weighed and measured and found wanting.
What about Wicksramasinghe who came up with the same calculation and Crick who affirmed its probability ? Further, your argument of a piecemealed process of a DNA molecule being more credible versus the whole, is absurd ; you dont get a fully functioning DNA molecule piecemealed ------- abiogenesis disregards the established law of Biology whereby life only comes from life itself...and this has never ever been controverted .

Theres plenty of people born in other countries that become followers of Christ either soon in their life or later on. There is an account of a woman in Russia who was walking along a busy downtown street and a Bible written in english fell on her head out of a window above ; she couldnt read english so she took courses in english, read the Bible, and became a Christian.

Its actually atheism which requires a person be willfully self decieved in order to keep denying the obvious of all things : A personal intelligent theistic Creator for our incredibly fine tuned personal Cosmos . Suppressing ones intrinsic knowledge and obvious evidences of purposed design so one can live completely autonomous , without ultimate moral accountability, and so not be owned....is the highest example of self deciet ; man made desperate philosophies and theories like a human brain ultimately coming from dead accidental chemicals in some soup pond (yet technologically advanced Mankind not being able to produce anything near it) , shows the level of willful self deciet. It would be far easier for your hand held circular saw to turn into a jigsaw by placing it in your garage and setting off bombs every 5 seconds for 1.5 billion years ..... yet youd never think it could be accomplished.
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Old 11-22-2011, 08:16 AM
 
2,996 posts, read 4,925,812 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Ah the old "I have no idea what I am talking about but I can invent and imagine some anecdotes to support my own position" trick. Nice.



Not one no.



Once again, though I imagine you will ignore it as you usually do because your straw man gives you more leeway to troll.... the claim is not that there is no god. The claim is that there is not a SINGLE reason on offer to think there IS a god.

As long as you hold on to your straw man like a child does a security blanket, you will just be talking past people like me, not with them.
I chat with atheists all the time.

You seldom address ALL of my points in a post.

I dont have any strawmen...I know atheism quite well, have dialogued with countless atheist wannabes, and considered myself one for a good 10 adult years as evidenced by pretending given enough time and chance anything can happen ... even nullifying established laws of science to get there, persecuted Christians/Theists/and The Christian Church, mocked God , displayed typical anti-God behavior in public , and of course hanging with like-minded Atheists who had the same defeatist attitudes that arise from a worldview of everything being utterly meaningless, unpurposed, and hopeless . When are we going to hear your journey from Christian/Theist to Atheist based on sound reason , rationale, and real science ?
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