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As an atheist in Texas I run into quite a few Christians who make claims that their lives have been transformed by their "relationship" with God and Jesus. The common thread is that their lives have been changed for the better and that in some cases there is a belief that certain things would not have happened to them if they had not become Christian. Is there anyone who believes that there is some kind of "placebo effect" going on here? Are they ignoring all the people for whom their lives do NOT change appreciably or who still suffer and die in misery after converting. We can imagine this scenario I would think in certain very poor parts of the world.
BTW, one of the best "atheist prayers" I have ever seen on the internet is the one below. Quite moving and powerful if you ask me.
Uhhh, how exactly do you call that prayer an "atheist" one when the very first line addresses a "biblical God, Jehovah, and Jesus?"
And the prayer was on a Christina website!
LOL--I think you are a bit confused.
As far as the power of prayer? If to works for you, then it's true. If I find that if I believe my daily prayers to God furnish me with hope and inner-strength, than they do, since I can feel that power. (Even if there is no God. Or He's not listening; or is listening and doesn't care.)
So, yeah, sure: I guess you could equate the power of prayer to a placebo effect, but that would be an accurate comparison only if God does not exist. And that theory, my friend, will never, ever be proven. Although I sincerely believe that one day proof for God--most likely of the Deist variety--will emerge for us.
Your question reminds me of the famous theological postulate known as "Pascal's Wager." On this subject of the existence of God, he basically said that we were better off to believe in God and follow a Christian life, because if He did exist, we would be aligned to receive assistance from Him during our lives, and then also be entitled to the reward of Heaven upon our death.
And even if God did not exist, Pascal continued, one could still reap the benefits of the placebo affect of prayer during their life, and then when they finally perished it would not matter any longer that there was no God or afterlife.
So my advice to anyone who finds they need some inner-strength and resolve in times of trouble would be for them to prayer earnestly and humbly to the God they believe in. Or even "sorta kinda" believe in.
The cost is nil, and the payoff can be incredibly enormous.
Peace, y'all.
So my advice to anyone who finds they need some inner-strength and resolve in times of trouble would be for them to prayer earnestly and humbly to the God they believe in. Or even "sorta kinda" believe in.
The cost is nil, and the payoff can be incredibly enormous.
Peace, y'all.
The cost of this kind of bet is *not* nil. People are dying because of their religion every day. Which religion should the better choose and why?
If this God exists, presumably he would know that the bettor is pretending to believe. Would a god really want a hypocrite in preference to an honest agnostic or atheist? Not a god I want to pretend to believe in.
As an atheist in Texas I run into quite a few Christians who make claims that their lives have been transformed by their "relationship" with God and Jesus. The common thread is that their lives have been changed for the better and that in some cases there is a belief that certain things would not have happened to them if they had not become Christian. Is there anyone who believes that there is some kind of "placebo effect" going on here? Are they ignoring all the people for whom their lives do NOT change appreciably or who still suffer and die in misery after converting.
In Christianity, God gets all the credit for things that go right and believers get all the blame for things that go wrong. Even where Satan is to blame it's a believer that "gave him place", enabling Satan to influence things for ill. Or if you're of a more liberal persuasion, substitute something more generic for Satan, like "evil". Same principle: God has no responsibility to follow through on this promises.
To me what you're describing just reflects this thought-system. The believer is a lowly worm who would be nothing without Jesus stepping in. Everything good that has happend is because of Jesus. Every loss, every calamity, every mistake is a personal failure because "Jesus never fails".
It also reflects a very self-absorbed, life-is-all-about-me worldview that allows them to explain away the suffering of their fellow believers as "tests of faith" or to say or imply that "real Christians" don't suffer or doubt or hurt. After all, the only intelligent thing I recall coming out of a minister's mouth was this saying: "The church is the only army that shoots its own wounded".
It's not so much a placebo effect as a selection bias.
And why do people who become Christians (or in other beliefs) become more loving? Because they become happy. Good people who are happy tend to be loving to others. They tend to want to embrace all and wish everybody good will. Because they are happy.
In my experience as a former Christian it really had more to do with faking that you give two Moderator cut: inappropriate language about your fellow man because that's what you're "supposed" to do. It's true that some people have a warm fuzzy emotional response to religious sentiment and this tends to make them well-disposed at those particular times to their fellow man, but it's not sustainable or transformational in any meaningful way. Everyone just agrees to the fiction.
This is why people can sit in church and nod gravely at the minister's high-minded bloviations and not remember a thing they heard after walking out the door and certainly not practice it. Even preachers decry the chronic problem of people playing roles on Sunday and acting like everyone else during the week.
I think it might be a handy thing if we had a cult deprogramer on this thread.
I think many of us humans may not be optimizing our lives for one reason or another and something that gives us hope and direction and the 'warm fuzzies' sometimes can kick us into high gear and pull us out of our morass.
I also think there should be some sort of formalized and regular forum for the discussion of ethics and morals. There is too much of a tendency towards a government that used to be considered sci-fi. I know atheists can be very moral people, but think without religion there are many others who might run amok. It takes, usually, a higher intelligence and insight to break with the norms of society to question or reject the common concept of god. To me, when people are developmentally ready for it, they break away.
Originally Posted by northstar22 So you're saying that it would make life hell if you believe in love?
Or that it would make life hell if you don't believe in love?
According to your logic morality doesn't exist either so why try to lead a moral life, right?
Actually, no. This is one of the most fallacious, and downright suspicious arguments ever.
If you really think that you can just do whatever you want just because there's no objective morality, you need to reevaluate your own subjective morals.
I think it's pretty strange how I hear this from some theists. They're essentially saying, although there are many people leading good lives without god, if they don't have god, they can't function in society. There's something wrong with that.
I think it's pretty strange how I hear this from some theists. They're essentially saying, although there are many people leading good lives without god, if they don't have god, they can't function in society. There's something wrong with that.
Has anyone analyzed societies that are predominantly religious vs. those which were not?
I see the Soviet Union and the suffering and corruption, but then there is Scandinavia, which is not known for corruption. So, does religion play any real role, bottom line, in a society?
If you really think that you can just do whatever you want just because there's no objective morality, you need to reevaluate your own subjective morals.
Where have I stated that man can do whatever he wants because there are no consquences?
But it sure is a fact that, as long these consequences don't affect them personally, some people simply don't give a damn about the consequences of their actions. I mean how else would the current global economic crisis be possible?
Originally Posted by goldengrain
Quote:
I see the Soviet Union and the suffering and corruption, but then there is Scandinavia, which is not known for corruption. So, does religion play any real role, bottom line, in a society?
My theory is that religion played a very important role in the forming of the 1st societies.
I'd say it would be impossible for man to form a large society without religion because if atheism would've been man's default position he would still have been too busy to survive the jungle on his own (or in his small tribe).
Sure the quest for power (read: politics) could temporarily solidify the alliance of several (small) tribes but it takes religion to make it 'permanent'; to create a national identity for each individual, where they accept the stranger as their own.
The biggest difference between atheist societies like the SU and Scandinavia is their population.
The SU has many different 'tribes' who come from different regions, which explains the many cultural differences within the SU, while I'm assuming that Scandinavia only has a few tribes where the terrain is largely the same.
So the more homogeneous the people the easier it is to form an atheist society were there is less corruption. I don't believe there is a corrupt free society.
The only reason that it would have been "impossible for man to form a large society without religion" was that there were too many ignorant people with little knowledge of reality who were ripe to be taken advantage of by early shaman/cleric types.
As an atheist in Texas I run into quite a few Christians who make claims that their lives have been transformed by their "relationship" with God and Jesus. The common thread is that their lives have been changed for the better and that in some cases there is a belief that certain things would not have happened to them if they had not become Christian. Is there anyone who believes that there is some kind of "placebo effect" going on here? Are they ignoring all the people for whom their lives do NOT change appreciably or who still suffer and die in misery after converting. We can imagine this scenario I would think in certain very poor parts of the world.
BTW, one of the best "atheist prayers" I have ever seen on the internet is the one below. Quite moving and powerful if you ask me.
Knowing God and having Christ change is a personal jounery that everyone takes alone, and is between them and god. some see and some don't. but to see god you must seek him.
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So you're saying that it would make life hell if you believe in love? 
Where have I stated that man can do whatever he wants because there are no consquences?
I mean how else would the current global economic crisis be possible?
My theory is that religion played a very important role in the forming of the 1st societies.
I don't believe there is a corrupt free society.
