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Old 11-02-2011, 09:18 PM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
13,143 posts, read 19,214,711 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DogLava View Post
To the first evolving humans, just about everything was "supernatural" until it became better understood, and therefore "natural." Fire, the moon, the stars, flash floods, hurricanes, wolf attacks, etc. All that stuff was downright spooky until cavemen poked it with the proverbial stick of curiosity, and then the 10th hurricane became expected, with some more advanced apes warning others, battening down the hatches, etc.

Ultimately, we will have mapped out unseen wavelengths to a degree far greater than we now have, and maybe that will unravel ghosts and spirits. And that makes precisely nothing "supernatural".
Yep. I do think we'll get there someday.
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Old 11-02-2011, 09:40 PM
 
Location: The State Of California
9,470 posts, read 12,326,313 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weatherologist View Post
Hello, please forgive me if my question seems ignorant, but my husband and I were just having a discussion and I told him I would post it here.

Do atheists believe in ghost/spirits?

My husband seems to think that there is some connection between God and spirits. His reasoning was, "if atheists don't believe in God, why would there be a spirit world", or something like that. My argument was, "why does there have to be a God to control the spirit world?".

Anyway, we were batting this back and forth (me totally unable to see where he was going with his thought process) when I decided, "why not go straight to the source?".

Any insight would be appreciated.

Thanks.

weather...
Atheists believe in Ghosts the very moment that they see one or two.
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Old 11-02-2011, 09:48 PM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
13,143 posts, read 19,214,711 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DogLava View Post
....and ultimately, ghosts and spirits won't be anything like we imagine them to be now. More likely pretty boring (at least as compared to Dickens' Marley), rational phenomena that is a natural consequence of nature's laws, most of which we already understand.
I really do think that's true. I've gone on and on about ghosts on this forum, have done an unhealthy amount of reading on the subject and was set off on this whole episode by seeing a ghost on several different occasions with accompanying spooky phenomenon in my own house.

At this point I can arrive at only two real concrete determinations on the subject:

#1. Otherwise sane people have been seeing ghosts/UFOs (I still think they are from the same source and are essentially the same phenomena) for thousands of years and in great numbers. *Something* is happening; it's not just lies and hallucinations.

#2 There is no rhyme or reason or point to any of it. Nothing is accomplished by the phenomenon and it is completely unpredictable and illogical in the way it occurs.

To me, that screams "Unknown Natural Phenomenon" because if it was made up or even if it was really dead human "souls" trying to communicate with the living it would have a sensible pattern and exhibit characteristics of human thought/action. Yet in truly credible cases it does not. It's completely weird and pointless; it simply does not match up with anything else in our normal world.


It's a big mistake to equate "ghosts" with dead people or even UFO's with aliens. That's our cultural conditioning at work trying desperately categorize something completely outside of human experience into something our minds can comprehend and relate to. The fact of the matter is that it might NOT be understandable or relateable to us at this point in time, any more than an an 860,000 mile wide ball of fusing hydrogen molecules millions of miles away would be comprehendable to an ancient Egyptian.

When it came to the sun, the best the ancient Egyptians could do was imagine a falcon-headed dude with a big gold disc on his head sailing across the sky. For us and the "paranormal" today, the best we can do is imagine spirits of dead humans who are still upset about being dead and bug-eyed aliens who are strangely fascinated with our genitals and feel the strong need to warn random people with no power or authority about the dangers of nuclear weapons.

We've gotta backpedal a bit... back to figures that shouldn't be there and tend to vanish instantly and strangely behaving lights or metallic looking objects in the sky. Stuff beyond that is most likely fantasy added on to real, misinterpreted and mostly likely naturally caused phenomena.

We've gotta face the facts... we are little apes on a backwater little world in an incredibly vast and complex universe, and we've only been trying to logically understand it all for a couple hundred years. We've hardly scratched the surface of all there is to know.

Anyway, Halloween is over and I need to get my mind off the subject before I really do go crazy...

Last edited by Chango; 11-02-2011 at 10:18 PM..
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Old 11-02-2011, 10:09 PM
 
Location: Texas
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I'm open to the idea. I'm really open to a lot of ideas on the subject. But I'm not sure I would say that I believe in them.

I did have one interesting experience happen to me when I was around, I'd guess, in the 12-14ish age range. It wasn't really a ghost experience, though. Basically what happened was I woke up one morning to get out of bed, only to realize that "I" was still lying there when I "got up." I floated around the house and outside for a few minutes, then when I heard my grandmother yelling it was time for breakfast, I jumped back into by body and woke up (for real).

I wrote the whole experience off at the time as just a weird dream, and no, I wasn't experimenting with any drugs.

I've read stories of other people who've had experiences similar to what I did, but their stories are far more exceptional than mine. Almost unbelievable which is sort of an issue when you think about it.

The problem with these things is that they're kinda hard to prove beyond any doubt.
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Old 11-03-2011, 10:22 AM
 
Location: Golden, CO
2,108 posts, read 2,500,655 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Howest2008 View Post
Atheists believe in Ghosts the very moment that they see one or two.
Wrong. I have seen what I thought was a spirit and I don't believe in spirits/ghosts, etc.

I believe it was a figment of my imagination. Personal experiences don't prove anything. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and personal experience is nowhere near extraordinary evidence because of the brain's ability to misperceive and misinterpret sensory input.
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Old 11-03-2011, 01:15 PM
 
Location: USA
1,589 posts, read 1,735,667 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hueffenhardt View Post
Wrong. I have seen what I thought was a spirit and I don't believe in spirits/ghosts, etc.

I believe it was a figment of my imagination. Personal experiences don't prove anything. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and personal experience is nowhere near extraordinary evidence because of the brain's ability to misperceive and misinterpret sensory input.

Interesting, how seeing something like that doesn't prove that it's there. But is assumed that it was imagination. I guess we define "what is real" by whether that thing is like us, has flesh and blood or whether maybe we continue seeing it instead of it appearing...

Objectively speaking I think this thing that was seen could be (50% a real thing) or could be (50% imagination)

And I guess people are divided in their BELIEF (since there is no proof). Some believe it was real and others that it was not...

Atheists BELIEVE that what they are seeing is not really there (or not real)
and believers BELIEVE that it's real
just thinking...
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Old 11-03-2011, 01:24 PM
 
Location: Vermont
10,313 posts, read 11,239,815 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by achickenchaser View Post
I'm open to the idea. I'm really open to a lot of ideas on the subject. But I'm not sure I would say that I believe in them.

I did have one interesting experience happen to me when I was around, I'd guess, in the 12-14ish age range. It wasn't really a ghost experience, though. Basically what happened was I woke up one morning to get out of bed, only to realize that "I" was still lying there when I "got up." I floated around the house and outside for a few minutes, then when I heard my grandmother yelling it was time for breakfast, I jumped back into by body and woke up (for real).

I wrote the whole experience off at the time as just a weird dream, and no, I wasn't experimenting with any drugs.

I've read stories of other people who've had experiences similar to what I did, but their stories are far more exceptional than mine. Almost unbelievable which is sort of an issue when you think about it.

The problem with these things is that they're kinda hard to prove beyond any doubt.
Sounds like a hypnagogic hallucination.
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Old 11-03-2011, 01:41 PM
 
Location: Vermont
10,313 posts, read 11,239,815 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DogLava View Post
After all, what do these people have in common, those folks who have seen ghosts? They all have a brain.
You're very kind.
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Old 11-03-2011, 01:49 PM
 
Location: Lower east side of Toronto
10,586 posts, read 10,783,334 times
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Only delluded doinks believe in ghosts. I could sleep in a cemetary in comfort...even if there were such things - From what I understand..biblically speaking is that necro-mancy is forbidden and any communication with the dead is a no no... ODD that you mention atheists that might believe in ghosts - and UFOs for that matter<..I could never understand that a person does not believe in God but does believe in little green men and spectors.
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Old 11-03-2011, 01:53 PM
 
Location: Seattle bound
284 posts, read 421,697 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackmccullough View Post
Sounds like a hypnagogic hallucination.
I often have these, I had one last night actually... They are part and parcel of my miswired brain, and stress tends to bring them out. But they're a little different than what I've perceived as "supernatural" events.

Then again, who can say what is what when the brain is involved?
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