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Old 12-03-2011, 11:05 AM
 
Location: Central Florida
733 posts, read 530,440 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by northstar22 View Post
Logically, it makes perfect sense. Death is defined as the permanent cessation of brain activity. When a person's -- even a child or someone who dealt with many struggles -- brain activity ceases, they cease to be. I don't like it, but it is a scientific fact, and it makes perfect sense from an empirical standpoint. We as humans need to stop holding on to the fantasy of an afterlife and invest more in life-extension and disease-elimination research, as those are the only ways we can extend our lives and possibly reach a kind of immortality.
I don't agree that personhood is reducible to brain activity- being a person is an embodied relational process, not a pure mental or neurochemical process. But I don't exactly believe in the Theistic/Christian afterlife. My own beliefs about "Life after death" are humanistic Buddhist influenced by Process thought. Meaning I believe people live on after our mortal life is over in the effects we have on the world. Beyond this objective truth, I am agnostic about the possibility of subjective experiences after death.
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Old 12-03-2011, 11:16 AM
 
Location: Central Florida
733 posts, read 530,440 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
Yep; a loverly little fairy-tale-ending to be sure. Just one little problem: it's claimed to be an entirely different heavenly scenario with each and every unique religion, and that kinda puts the "kaibosh" on it's being an actual place with uniform characteristics.

(Not to mention that it makes absolutely no logical dsernse if you think beyond even the most rudimentary facets of such a place! Perfect, sin-less and providing of whatever your reasonable heart desires.)

So then... what about my amazed confrontation with my once-best-friend's wife, the lovely one I secretly coveted all my life? And she me. And now, here she is, stopped in her aging process at an incredible 27 yrs of age (when I first met her...) and I, no longer dragging my arthritic body along, but in my physical prime of, say, 28 yrs of age. And yet, like a block of mud dropped onto the whole thing, there he is, the gross chauvinist pig he always was, and who never treated her well.
There's alot of similarities in different religions about what "heaven" would be like once we get past the details. It's true it is often culturally determined but at the same time, people envision a world based on equality where people live devoted to a good activity, freed from the constraints of living a biological existence in a fallen or suffering world, wheather it is worshipping God or venerating the Buddhas of the ten directions (I recommend Ven. Thitch Nhat Hanh's excellent book, "Finding Our True Home", a lovely commentary on the Smaller Pure Land Sutra). The next world is where the good is actualized fully and we are forever seperated from our sins or ignorance. People that are stuck thinking of heaven as a cosmic amusement park full of sensualism or carnality are really missing out the deeper themes (heaven won't be "whatever your heart desires" as our desires are part of what makes this world un-heavenly. Wanting your neighbor's wife is surely at the top of the list of ill-gotten gains that would be purged in a paradise. So, rightly so, heaven or paradise is not for everybody, only for people that have gotten beyond the need to feed themselves at somebody else's expense.
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Old 12-03-2011, 04:30 PM
 
Location: Southern Minnesota
5,990 posts, read 11,573,442 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DT113876 View Post
I don't agree that personhood is reducible to brain activity- being a person is an embodied relational process, not a pure mental or neurochemical process.
I agree with you, and it doesn't conflict with my atheism.

Quote:
But I don't exactly believe in the Theistic/Christian afterlife. My own beliefs about "Life after death" are humanistic Buddhist influenced by Process thought. Meaning I believe people live on after our mortal life is over in the effects we have on the world.
Once again, I agree. You will "live on" in the memories of those who loved (and hated) you after you die.

Quote:
Beyond this objective truth, I am agnostic about the possibility of subjective experiences after death.
I am 99.999999999999999999% sure that there is no afterlife (defined as 'conscious subjective experience') of any kind.
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Old 12-03-2011, 04:35 PM
 
Location: Southern Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
Well where does "Human Consciousness" come from? Does it not strike you are being rather miraculous in and of itself. I mean, how can we BE AWARE THAT WE ARE, quite frankly. And do you suppose some things could be conscious that are not in the animal kingdom -- flowers, rocks, etc...??? Obviously we can't know since we cannot communicate with them, per se -
Consciousness is a byproduct of electrochemical processes in the brain.
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Old 12-03-2011, 07:23 PM
 
40,098 posts, read 26,761,498 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by northstar22 View Post
Consciousness is a byproduct of electrochemical processes in the brain.
It is a stand-alone product of electrochemical processes in the brain. The composite of the activity is a resonant neural field (greater than the sum of its parts) that is a composite form of pure energy in the universal field that establishes our reality. We experience it "in-process" at this level of being . . . but it exists at a higher level of being.
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Old 12-03-2011, 08:18 PM
 
16,300 posts, read 24,972,538 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
It is a stand-alone product of electrochemical processes in the brain. The composite of the activity is a resonant neural field (greater than the sum of its parts) that is a composite form of pure energy in the universal field that establishes our reality. We experience it "in-process" at this level of being . . . but it exists at a higher level of being.
annnnnnnnd there is where your train of thought leaves the rails of reality, that is pure speculation on your part without evidence.

Hate to break it to you ol'boy, but we're just another critter existing on the same plain as the dog sleeping at your feet or the cockroach looking for something to eat in your kitchen right now.
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Old 12-03-2011, 11:13 PM
 
40,098 posts, read 26,761,498 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville Native View Post
annnnnnnnd there is where your train of thought leaves the rails of reality, that is pure speculation on your part without evidence.

Hate to break it to you ol'boy, but we're just another critter existing on the same plain as the dog sleeping at your feet or the cockroach looking for something to eat in your kitchen right now.
The molecular vibratory "speed" of the physical body we inhabit is sub-light . . . but our consciousness exists as a composite of pure resonant neural energy at light-squared molecular "speed" (E= MC^2). This is what enables our consciousness to transcend the limits of our current space and time to contemplate past, present and future . . . among other things.
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Old 12-04-2011, 12:50 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 11,377,077 times
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Default Migraines as The Afterlife? Who's to know?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cruxan View Post
well i say lights on!!! is it a god?? dont know,, could be the next step in another demension.. why you wonder i say this?? because in the past when i was laying down to go to sleep i've seen massive scary brite white light, i'm talking a ligtning bolt going off in you whole field of view!!! it's happened to me 4 times.. it's actually one of the things that have turned me into an agnostic... it raised me god meter a few percentage points...
Anyone here ever have an "optical migrane"? I've had several of them, and they do, indeed, represent a v. bright (but also geometrical!) light.

Whatsay the possibility that people who have never had one are forced into that condition by the metabolic or biochemical changes associated with a near-death experience?

Perhaps these near-death biochemical struggles are one of the causes of optical migraines (BTW, there's generally no pain, as in "headache", involved, just a series of very geometrical, colorful and /or bright lights.)

Here are some computer- or artist-generated images of an optical migraine, and these are fairly accurate. THey last for anywhere from 1 minute to an hour with me.

Image Detail for - http://www.themigrainesolution.com/images/auraExample.jpg

Image Detail for - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b0/Migraine_aura.jpg/220px-Migraine_aura.jpg

Image Detail for - http://static.desktopnexus.com/thumbnails/215646-bigthumbnail.jpg

Yup: Just like this! Unbelievable, huh? But NOT God or The Approaching Afterlife, unless I"ve been Near Death about 10 times?
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Old 12-04-2011, 11:51 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 11,377,077 times
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Default OK now: for a dose of good'ol REALITY!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DT113876 View Post
I don't agree that personhood is reducible to brain activity- being a person is an embodied relational process, not a pure mental or neurochemical process. But I don't exactly believe in the Theistic/Christian afterlife. My own beliefs about "Life after death" are humanistic Buddhist influenced by Process thought. Meaning I believe people live on after our mortal life is over in the effects we have on the world. Beyond this objective truth, I am agnostic about the possibility of subjective experiences after death.
But why do you feel that (biochemically induced) personhood is not so easily reduced after death to that same mucky sludge in the bottom of your casket? By what evidence, feelings, experiences, etc? Were they totally unambiguous or were they completely selective?

BTW, spiritually, to me, Buddhism is an interesting alternative, but then there's still a "bunch" of inexplicable alternatives, right? Who's right? Where's the popular phone-in score sheet and results of the Majority Rules tally? Like an American Idol night of elimination perhaps? Simon? What do you say?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DT113876 View Post

√ There's alot of similarities in different religions about what "heaven" would be like once we get past the details. It's true it is often culturally determined but at the same time, people envision a world based on equality where people live devoted to a good activity, freed from the constraints of living a biological existence in a fallen or suffering world...

√ People that are stuck thinking of heaven as a cosmic amusement park full of sensualism or carnality are really missing out the deeper themes (heaven won't be "whatever your heart desires" as our desires are part of what makes this world un-heavenly. Wanting your neighbor's wife is surely at the top of the list of ill-gotten gains that would be purged in a paradise. So, rightly so, heaven or paradise is not for everybody, only for people that have gotten beyond the need to feed themselves at somebody else's expense.
Rifleman says: So it would somehow reach into our more base humanistic/animalistic feelings, esp. if we die & go there at the height of, oh say... the peak of male teenaged testosterone. And it would selectively purge aspects of our biochemically mediated personalities? Make us something else than what we were when/before we left for Heaven's Gate?

So we're something else then? So... a convicted sadist chainsaw murderer of dozens of young children? He can't get into heaven because he's an evil sadist? And the righteous don't want him to be forgiven nor in any way let off the hook, so to speak... Or alternately he can go, because he's gonna undergo the same complete psychological makeover we all will when he goes through the Heavenly equivalent of the TSA? Rifling through your persona and saying, with an intese and accusatory stare... (and in your best blustering authoritarian heavy-set British accent..)

"Well... whot's this then, eh??" as he raises a bottle of pure evil intent you've been trying to smuggle into Heaven, tucked under your dirty sox down in the bottom of your "luggage"?

Seems a bit too contrived to me. Far too easily subjugated to your own personal needs and/or goals...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
Well where does "Human Consciousness" come from? Does it not strike you are being rather miraculous in and of itself. I mean, how can we BE AWARE THAT WE ARE, quite frankly. And do you suppose some things could be conscious that are not in the animal kingdom -- flowers, rocks, etc...??? Obviously we can't know since we cannot communicate with them, per se -
Agreed, the same as that we cannot actually KNOW the origins of our own self-consciousness. Why do we assume, for instance, that, let's say, a lobster has no self-consciousness (this statement was made a few decades back by some overly assertive and arrogant animal behavioralist, based on an obvious overlay of his human emotions on a tank full of apparently non-self-assertive () crustaceans....

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
It is a stand-alone product of electrochemical processes in the brain. The composite of the activity is a resonant neural field (greater than the sum of its parts) that is a composite form of pure energy in the universal field that establishes our reality. We experience it "in-process" at this level of being . . . but it exists at a higher level of being.
Great except for the parts where you drift into your own unsubstantiatable conclusions. Nice stuff, and well & deeply examined over a lengthy period of time. I didn't just quickly, and without any depth, make up all my reasons to thoroughly disbelieve it all. By comparison, Mystic, you did take notes as it were, but that does not mean my own deep internal examinations are any less valid.

And those are.. that it's all based on personal needs in "tuning up" your conclusions, setting into "hard-coat" just the ones you happen to like the best... Or as AN notes here....


Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville Native View Post
annnnnnnnd there is where your train of thought leaves the rails of reality, that is pure speculation on your part without evidence.

Hate to break it to you ol'boy, but we're just another critter existing on the same plain as the dog sleeping at your feet or the cockroach looking for something to eat in your kitchen right now.
We're a little more self-aware, I'd say, than thet-thar cockroach, but who really KNOWS, right? But, at least at the "forward-planning" and "Oh no; what have I done" official "possible consequences of one's actions" part, I doubt the dog, and certainly not the 'roach, possess those abilities!

But that does not in any way prove up an afterlife. Or a God.

As well, Christians have an ongoing very tough time (to the point that they won't even discuss it here or anywhere...) consolidating all the vastly different absolute views of how this afterlife thing works. You might come back as an Holy Cow in India, or as a dandelion our in a smoggy freeway median, or as an orangutan, or (my favorite hope...) free-ranging polar bear, and so on.

IMH& rational O, you certainly won't get to be of a certain age and health, and ditto for all your friends you get to re-connect with in heaven. They'd have already chosen the best times from their lives, so there will likely be no real old people in heaven huh? Unless you get to choose one persona, physical and emotional, each day? Week? Year? After all, you do have a long time to re-try them out, right?

How transparently silly!

Last edited by rifleman; 12-04-2011 at 11:59 AM..
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Old 12-04-2011, 02:40 PM
 
Location: Southern Minnesota
5,990 posts, read 11,573,442 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The molecular vibratory "speed" of the physical body we inhabit is sub-light . . . but our consciousness exists as a composite of pure resonant neural energy at light-squared molecular "speed" (E= MC^2). This is what enables our consciousness to transcend the limits of our current space and time to contemplate past, present and future . . . among other things.
Is there any empirical, testable, measurable evidence for this?
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