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Old 11-19-2011, 02:59 PM
 
Location: Seattle bound
284 posts, read 421,451 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 007.5 View Post
I am using the word 'Heathen' as follows from the online dictionary sub-category definition : 'an irreligious, uncultured, or uncivilized person' . I think most would agree that such a person exhibits immorality and possibly anarchy on a frequent basis. Do you think Heathens are BEST represented by Atheists in american society ? ( Note, i do not know why it started printing in blue).
Again, your reasoning is based on false assumption that "Heathen = Atheist" and that Xtians = cultured and civilized. Therefore, again your reasoning is faulty.

Note: the Oxford English Dictionary defines "heathen" as: an individual or people: holding religious beliefs of a sort that are considered unenlightened, now esp. ones of a primitive or polytheistic nature; spec. not of the Christian, Jewish, or Muslim faiths.

and that the word is a direct derivative of Gothic haiţi , HEATH n., as if ‘dweller on the heath’, taken as a kind of loose rendering of Latin pāgānus (originally ‘villager, rustic’, later, after Christianity became the religion of the towns, while the ancient deities were still retained in rural districts, ‘pagan, heathen’).

Also, to answer your question... no, most of the Atheists I know are rather cultured and have high moral ethics, as do many of the Xtians of my acquaintance. A person's religious beliefs, I've found, have little bearing on their morals or their "culturedness."

I'm Agnostic btw, and belong to neither camp.
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Old 11-19-2011, 03:06 PM
 
2,996 posts, read 4,921,131 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wscottling View Post
Again, your reasoning is based on false assumption that "Heathen = Atheist" and that Xtians = cultured and civilized. Therefore, again your reasoning is faulty.

Note: the Oxford English Dictionary defines "heathen" as: an individual or people: holding religious beliefs of a sort that are considered unenlightened, now esp. ones of a primitive or polytheistic nature; spec. not of the Christian, Jewish, or Muslim faiths.

and that the word is a direct derivative of Gothic haiţi , HEATH n., as if ‘dweller on the heath’, taken as a kind of loose rendering of Latin pāgānus (originally ‘villager, rustic’, later, after Christianity became the religion of the towns, while the ancient deities were still retained in rural districts, ‘pagan, heathen’).

Also, to answer your question... no, most of the Atheists I know are rather cultured and have high moral ethics, as do many of the Xtians of my acquaintance. A person's religious beliefs, I've found, have little bearing on their morals or their "culturedness."

I'm Agnostic btw, and belong to neither camp.
If you were to ask anyone who displays heathen behavior and actions if they believe in and follow God, they would most likely respond with : 'H _ _ _ no !' or a worse retort. Therefore, they are proclaimed Atheists.

Atheists i find follow our ever changing culture so that is true ; and i find the great majority of them fluent in vile and foul language, a defeatist attitude, an apathetic mindset , and a mantra which says 'No one is going to tell me how to live' . I find ones beliefs or lack thereof, to reflect thier actions/behavior/language in public/and motives.

You keep mispelling Christians -- is it bad luck to spell it correctly or something ?

An agnostic is hardly different from an atheist ; they are like half-brothers when it comes to God and willful rejection of him. Most agnostics arent serious seekers , but rather, they use the excuse that they are always in an investigative mode on the issue of God ...a rather perpetual non committal dance.

Last edited by 007.5; 11-19-2011 at 03:16 PM..
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Old 11-19-2011, 03:19 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,945 posts, read 4,743,974 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theophane View Post
So how come you're such a strong atheist?
Perhaps he is an Agnostic Atheist and believes it to be the most true and good condition.
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Old 11-19-2011, 03:22 PM
 
Location: Seattle bound
284 posts, read 421,451 times
Reputation: 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by 007.5 View Post
You keep mispelling Christians -- is it bad luck to spell it correctly or something ?
A quick Google search will show you that Xtian is a valid spelling of Christian, a spelling I use online to spare my poor, arthritic fingers. I see that your life experiences differ from mine, so I'll agree to disagree with you and not engage in further debate.
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Old 11-19-2011, 03:31 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,945 posts, read 4,743,974 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 007.5 View Post
In actuality, theres no such thing as 'an atheist and agnostic' ; they are both just convenient titles to avoid looking diligently at the evidence of a personal theistic Creator that abounds , to willfully jettison the Creator , so maximized autonomy can be realized in ones personal daily life (ie lifestyle choices , et al) . I see both groups of people as excuse makers , looking for desperate philosophies (manmade theories) of the psuedo-science variety as justification , and, not really caring about the drastic implications associated with pushing ones very own Creator to the trash heap every day of their earthly life. It is their choice and no one should try to proslytize them as theyve already de-proslytized themselves by not desiring the truth nor to go in such a direction . The amount of trickery lengths many people will go to in order to be their own 'god' and worship themselves, is quite alarming and is not only relegated to the common man/woman but to esteemed Scientists like Hawkings , Dawkins , and all the rest in white lab coats whos pride gets in the way to maintain their apriori-personal philosophical bias. 'I wont, I wont, I wont, I wont......' .
there is no such thing as whatever beliefs you have 007.5, the only reason you pretend to have them is so that you can deny mine. you wish to avoid looking diligently at reality and wish to make excuses about Demiurges and other invisible fairies. You look for desperate narratives to feed into the desire for immortality which sickens you. You never think about the drastic implications or your gossip and lies. You simply deny the truth for the sake of your own believes and desires. Theists do a lot of trickery to model God in their favor so that they can be their own god and pray to themselves and hear their mind's own echos as the answers, so that they can have fake pride in their own virtues and self-righteousness. This is most clear in the power hungry religious authorities and their suits and costumes whose pride gets in the way to maintain their apriori-personal philosophical bias. "I wont, I wont, I wont, I wont"
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Old 11-20-2011, 01:47 AM
 
Location: The Pacific Northwest
6,015 posts, read 6,373,832 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burnsjacob38 View Post
An atheist claims something doesnt exist just because they cant see it, yet and agnostic acknowledges that it could possibly exist but wont be convinced until seeing it firsthand!
I completely agree. I have two brothers who are die-hard atheists, and a father who is a theist. I am an agnostic.

Agnostics get a bad rap. To both atheists and theists, a common conception is that they don't have the balls to pick a side. And I think that is a tragically inaccurate trivialization of the issue.

Let me use this relate-able albeit mundane analogy: I don't believe for a hot second that Casey Anthony or OJ Simpson was innocent. But I DO believe that the prosecutors in both instances failed to meet their burdens of proof that they were guilty. I think that in both cases, we didn't know all the facts.

Similarly, I believe that ALL religions of which I am aware have failed to meet their burden of proof (which, because they are alleging an affirmative fact, rests upon them) of the existence of a "God". But, just as I don't at all believe that the aforementioned parties were innocent, I do not believe that the failure of theists to meet their requisite standard of proof means justifies an affirmative belief in the nonexistence of a "god". Sorry, but that seems silly to me.

We as humans, have only so much to work with. I believe we are presented with an incomplete set of facts. There is simply too much regarding the origin of the universe, why matter exists, etc. that we do not yet know to make a coherent conclusion either way. And that makes me an agnostic.

Taking a completely logical approach to the nonexistence of a "god" (atheism) necessarily fails. It fails because it does not take into account the evolutionary nature of human knowledge and thinking. It is, in my opinion, as equally limited as theism.

So call me what you want. You can say I lack balls, or conviction in my logic. It's nothing I haven't heard before. But I refuse to rely on a body of knowledge that is ever-changing to rest my faith upon. And sometimes saying you do not know takes more courage than anything else.

EDIT: By "god" I do not mean to denote any specific deity enumerated by any religion. Simply the idea of a "higher power"

Last edited by Bluefox; 11-20-2011 at 02:23 AM..
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Old 11-21-2011, 06:39 AM
 
39,162 posts, read 10,865,034 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 007.5 View Post
If you were to ask anyone who displays heathen behavior and actions if they believe in and follow God, they would most likely respond with : 'H _ _ _ no !' or a worse retort. Therefore, they are proclaimed Atheists. ...
This looks like reasoning based on YOUR assumptions about what heathens would say and why.

I prefer the Merriam - Webster definition:

Definition of HEATHEN

1: of or relating to heathens, their religions, or their customs

2: strange, uncivilized


Examples of HEATHEN

  1. <old missionaries who mistakenly thought that they were going off to China to tame the heathen hordes>
The heathen is not an atheist, but someone with a different/wrong god (or gods/religion). Thus, even if they said they didn't believe in God, or words to that effect that would only mean they sure as hell didn't believe in YOUR god.

Atheism is disbelief in any god and is thus not heathenism, nor paganism, not communism nor Darwinism or science religion not humanism nor agnosticism nor any of the other inaccurate terms that some or others have attempted to slap onto atheism with greater of lesser honest intentions.
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Old 11-21-2011, 08:32 AM
 
2,996 posts, read 4,921,131 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wscottling View Post
A quick Google search will show you that Xtian is a valid spelling of Christian, a spelling I use online to spare my poor, arthritic fingers. I see that your life experiences differ from mine, so I'll agree to disagree with you and not engage in further debate.
The fact that two people disagree is good reason to dialogue , not an excuse to terminate a sharing of ideas .
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Old 11-21-2011, 08:36 AM
 
2,996 posts, read 4,921,131 times
Reputation: 1793
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
there is no such thing as whatever beliefs you have 007.5, the only reason you pretend to have them is so that you can deny mine. you wish to avoid looking diligently at reality and wish to make excuses about Demiurges and other invisible fairies. You look for desperate narratives to feed into the desire for immortality which sickens you. You never think about the drastic implications or your gossip and lies. You simply deny the truth for the sake of your own believes and desires. Theists do a lot of trickery to model God in their favor so that they can be their own god and pray to themselves and hear their mind's own echos as the answers, so that they can have fake pride in their own virtues and self-righteousness. This is most clear in the power hungry religious authorities and their suits and costumes whose pride gets in the way to maintain their apriori-personal philosophical bias. "I wont, I wont, I wont, I wont"
I dont have beliefs in order to discount yours, for, thats pretty shallow and rediculous . Rather, i have my beliefs based on evidences, where science is leading, reason, good rationale , and whats required (source) for a Cosmos where intellect, reason, logic, truth is a reality . Are your affirmative beliefs centered on the same ? Or are the centered on what you NEED them to be ?
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Old 11-21-2011, 08:40 AM
 
2,996 posts, read 4,921,131 times
Reputation: 1793
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
This looks like reasoning based on YOUR assumptions about what heathens would say and why.

I prefer the Merriam - Webster definition:

Definition of HEATHEN

1: of or relating to heathens, their religions, or their customs

2: strange, uncivilized


Examples of HEATHEN

  1. <old missionaries who mistakenly thought that they were going off to China to tame the heathen hordes>
The heathen is not an atheist, but someone with a different/wrong god (or gods/religion). Thus, even if they said they didn't believe in God, or words to that effect that would only mean they sure as hell didn't believe in YOUR god.

Atheism is disbelief in any god and is thus not heathenism, nor paganism, not communism nor Darwinism or science religion not humanism nor agnosticism nor any of the other inaccurate terms that some or others have attempted to slap onto atheism with greater of lesser honest intentions.
For the sake of clarity, lets then change from 'heathen' to : Immoralists and Hedonists (by and large) . Are you ok with this as representing those with an atheistic mindset taking into account atheist social constructs ?
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