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Old 11-14-2011, 10:37 AM
 
Location: Ostend,Belgium....
8,820 posts, read 6,362,600 times
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well once again I came across religious "friends" on Facebook, whose posts will have to get blocked or even removed...
"keep the Christ in Christmas"...blah blah blah..."and those who have not found Jesus are just blind..."
and how even if people aren't catholics, the fact they give gifts to eachother at Christmas time is proving they are keeping Christ in Christmas!!! so the richer you are, the better a Catholic!!!
and then what is pagan and what isn't..I'm too tired to even get into it with them...
unbelievable....
just venting....
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Old 11-14-2011, 11:25 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 11,369,507 times
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My quick (but never short, sadly..) point-form rebuttals in blue, OK?

[quote=Redshadowz;21561669]I cannot lie, I have nothing more than anecdotal evidence for my views on "real atheists". Maybe the ones I have come into contact with are not representative of atheists as a group.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rflmn
Not a very realistic assessment, IMO. You perhaps have only cosied up to the more argumentive types, like, say, me? But as well, if you were to then query my lifestyle, my philosophies and my friends, you'd quickly find that I'm a very inquisitive person, full of a zest for life and for what it's doen all around me. But as well, I'm hardly alone in this perspective. In fact, as career scientist, I have met and befriended so very many atheists (most of us scientists are, btw...).

In fact, we're perhaps the most friendly types you might ever hope to meet. Not necessarily in the company of hostile, combative fundamentalist Christians though. That may well be where you get the wrong impression! It's a conditional and situationally relative thing.[
/QUOTE]

It just seems like most Atheists I have ever met are immature people, who have parent issues, who were forced to go to church as a kid and resent it, and who attempt to belittle religion every chance they get, while unfairly blaming all the worlds problems on religion, without seeing any upside at all, and who refuse to entertain with any real possibility that a god could even exist, as they call anyone who is a believer "someone who believes in fairytales" as they look down their noses at them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rflmn
Well, yes, I did experience a totally unpleasant church experience, one that essentially forced me, initially, away from religion by virtue of its wholly unsatisfactory answers and responses. In it's smirking presumption of my arrogance for having asked those impertinent questions when I was a late=teen. So yup; it was partly the "fault" of Christianity. Now talk about hostile and nasty people! When they are confronted by the facts-list of an educated atheist, look out! They get downright defensive-aggressive! Looogout!

Fact: Christians do no want or choose to examine anything that might conflict with their chosen philosophy. They have far too much invested in their life's belief system to have it wrecked on the jagged rocks of Reality Reef. (I've always wanted to use that one! ).

Then, as I read it, I think that you go into that "if anything were very much different, life wouldn't have evolved as we see it". Well, you know the truth about that specious argument. So there's no need to dwell on it, except to say that "life" arose arose under the conditions that existed at the time. If those conditions had been significantly different, then life would likely hve arisen differently. And it does, in so many adapted forms, all over this planet. And yes; we're not going exist forever here. Essentially Earth is doomed. Always has been!
The truth is, evolution is absolutely a simple concept to understand. I would never propose to argue about evolution. What always amazes me is how the environment in which our evolution derived, ever came into being in the first place. To me, that is the truly amazing part of the situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rifle
Agreed. But then, no-one ever said this was/is a common condition. Life's having arisen at all may just well be quite the unlikely proposition. So what? How's about the likelihood of some iconic God hand-wavingly and casually creating it all in one week?

The unlikelihood of such conditions pre-existing do not alone make it impossible, and when we learn, in the not-too-distant future, to create life out of Drano and some diet Pepsi-Cola in our labs, we'll have essentially proven that it can happen. Via the relentless interactive rules of our universe.
I have talked to many Atheists about the meaning of life. Pretty much the only answer I ever get for the "meaning of life" from an atheist is just "to experience life". And if I ask them if it would matter if they died, they always say, "Yes, it would matter very much to me if I died, because then I would miss out on experiencing life."

Quote:
Originally Posted by rflmn
What would you xpect? That we don't enjoy our lives? Or that perhaps, somehow, we're immune to the threat and fear of dying? How so? We're not godz, after all! We just don' believe in some external deity that controls it all, and who will "save" us. Why delve into the fantastical?

Then there's the morals issue Why indeed would you assume we atheists, or humans in general, need some hand-written morals guidebook? After all, the ideasl and ideas in your bible were simply copied from other social constructs of the time, many of which were Greek. Remember all the prior pagan and heathen practices? You think that began and ends solely with us atheists?

Nope. We're just as moral, perhaps even more so, than a bunch of judgemental Christians, all smirking down THEIR noses at us for having taken form so far below their enlightened philosophical stature! We don't labor under any false and outdated social morés!
The sad thing is, I don't think they realize what a ridiculously stupid answer that is, completely devoid of much logic outside of their limited view from within. But you can't argue with them about it, they have their minds made up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rifle
You talking of Christians or atheists? What you say certainly applies to Christians, for sure.
From my point of view, the only reason not to kill yourself as an Atheist, is because it would affect the people around you(or because it hurts or goes against your survival instinct).

Quote:
Originally Posted by insulted_rflmn
Etc etc. Tripe, all of it, and morally reprehensible. Oh, and insulting to a non-Christian's intellectual integrity. It's just a simple-minded Christian talking point designed to denigrate atheists as morally bankrupt. Versus your high and mighty holier than thou position. Too sad, but also telling.
Generally speaking, Atheists have no issue with suicide. If a person isn't happy, then why not let them off themselves? Why would a person be forced to live a life in which they are absolutely miserable? Many people who are suicidal are only hanging on because they don't want to hurt the people they love. But what if they could both kill themselves and not truly hurt the ones they love?

Quote:
Originally Posted by frightened_rflmn
So. Don't Christians ever commit suicide? if not, is it only because they have been taught that they don't then get to slip unnoticed into Salvation Central? I'm thinking it's the later. Discipline by fear. Yup. That fits.
Which brings me to my core ethical question when dealing with Atheism....

If you woke up one morning and decided you wanted to die. And you had a button on the table in your living room, which would kill every single person on Earth instantly and without any pain. Why wouldn't you push the button?

Maybe you can enlighten me how an atheist would see that kind of ethical question? Isn't it really just a world-wide abortion?
Why would I want to frivolously end the innovent lives of a bunch of other folks who have every right to be here? I an and do see the difference, all without having to read and then to pray for guidance. Not so much for you, apparently! Such obvious philosophical decisions you can't make on your own? Horrors!

My own problems are absolutely my own, and I have no earthly business inflicting my personal philosophies on anyone else, certainly at the level of ending their probably useful and enjoyed lives.

Do you people need to be taken by the spiritual hand to prevent you from killing off the world? Is that how your God works for you? Because if so, I'm now officially frightened of Christians, and perhaps they should all be institutionalized to get the help they all apparently need. You know; in order for them to be able, on their own, to discern good from evil, right from wrong and social acceptability from inacceptability. Letting folks live versus murdering them al off.

We atheists come to our rational conclusions by a process of natural common sense and a respect for the lives and beliefs of others. Christians? Not so much, obviously.

Timothy McVeigh (Oklahoma City) was, as I recall, a devout Christian. And the 9/11 pilot-terrorists were also praying, practicing Muslims (a version of Christianity, for sure...).

"Just doin' God's holy work here!" was their message!

How terribly co-dependent and sad! I had no idea you guys had devolved so far down the social pathways!
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Old 11-14-2011, 12:24 PM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
2,705 posts, read 2,597,347 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
Then, to be completely intellectually honest with themselves, even the most devout Christians, if they are truly capable of open-minded analysis, should also be confirmed agnostics.

After all, they have to admit there's been a paucity of Godly interventions, gratuitous miracles and amputee healings of late. So, fact is, they must also leave open the possibility that, in fact, there actually may be no God at all. If they're being truly honest I mean.

If on the other hand they wish to claim that they "know" there IS a God because of some event they interpreted to mean, let's say, a personal conversation with Him, or that they prayed and it was answered, then by the very same rationale, I can assert there's absolutely no God. After all, as regards the stuff He's claimed to have done [actually, it's more like the things others claim He's done...], I have PROOF that it was achieved by other, far more rational and, oh yes, demonstrable, means.

And by those same universal rules of interaction, gravity, etc., I can easily predict, with a huge margin of success, exactly what will happen in many situations.

QED. We're all agnostics! Praise the unknown!
So how come you're such a strong atheist?
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Old 11-14-2011, 12:55 PM
 
9,412 posts, read 11,726,587 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz View Post
Which brings me to my core ethical question when dealing with Atheism....

If you woke up one morning and decided you wanted to die. And you had a button on the table in your living room, which would kill every single person on Earth instantly and without any pain. Why wouldn't you push the button?

Maybe you can enlighten me how an atheist would see that kind of ethical question? Isn't it really just a world-wide abortion?
No, that would be world wide murder, the extermination of a complete species.

I don't know any atheist who would subscribe to such a vile act, no matter how much of an misanthropist they professed to be, myself included.

Just because we don't believe in god/gods, does not mean we are without a sense of morality and act in an ethical manner.
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Old 11-15-2011, 12:58 AM
 
Location: Metromess
11,798 posts, read 21,972,242 times
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Redshadowz: Re: "world-wide abortion": That would cause the extinction of billions of people, not fetuses. Besides which, I am too fond of this world and what some humans have accomplished (music, science, etc.) to contemplate killing everyone on it (although many other species would be better off without us). Being an atheist doesn't mean that I have no empathy for others. If a god must promise eternal reward for good behaviour and eternal punishment for bad, then the resulting morality is severely compromised by this cosmic carrot and stick.
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Old 11-15-2011, 09:33 PM
 
Location: Seattle bound
284 posts, read 421,091 times
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It constantly amazes me how some people equate Atheism with immorality. As if not believing in their god means that people must not believe in the basic principles of life (i.e.: live and let live or don't go around killing each other randomly).

Honestly, do some people really walk around with blinders on? As much as people want to say that the United States is an Xtian nation, it's not. If it were an Xtian nation, then there would be only one brand of Xtianity for the nation to follow -- like Spain and Catholicism. We are a secular nation where people happen to practice myriad forms of Xtianity as well as other forms of religions.

Being human and a member of society is what gives us our morals - not following some dogma humans say has been set by a diety which may or may not exist (I'm Agnostic).
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Old 11-19-2011, 09:13 AM
 
2,996 posts, read 4,917,516 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burnsjacob38 View Post
An atheist claims something doesnt exist just because they cant see it, yet and agnostic acknowledges that it could possibly exist but wont be convinced until seeing it firsthand!
In actuality, theres no such thing as 'an atheist and agnostic' ; they are both just convenient titles to avoid looking diligently at the evidence of a personal theistic Creator that abounds , to willfully jettison the Creator , so maximized autonomy can be realized in ones personal daily life (ie lifestyle choices , et al) . I see both groups of people as excuse makers , looking for desperate philosophies (manmade theories) of the psuedo-science variety as justification , and, not really caring about the drastic implications associated with pushing ones very own Creator to the trash heap every day of their earthly life. It is their choice and no one should try to proslytize them as theyve already de-proslytized themselves by not desiring the truth nor to go in such a direction . The amount of trickery lengths many people will go to in order to be their own 'god' and worship themselves, is quite alarming and is not only relegated to the common man/woman but to esteemed Scientists like Hawkings , Dawkins , and all the rest in white lab coats whos pride gets in the way to maintain their apriori-personal philosophical bias. 'I wont, I wont, I wont, I wont......' .
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Old 11-19-2011, 09:29 AM
 
2,996 posts, read 4,917,516 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wscottling View Post
It constantly amazes me how some people equate Atheism with immorality. ................
I think we can be make a logical deductive argument in this manner then :

1. There are such a people group called Heathens in American Society.
2. Heathens are those who practice wanton immorality and anarchy and operate under the catalyst of apathy toward morality and good ethical frameworks so they can live as they like (willful rebellion) which is detectable and measurable in society today .
3. Such practice is based squarely on moral relativism to free one up to act as he/she desires , to maximize total automony in ones life, under the guise of no ultimate moral accountability to be concerned about.
4. Moral relativism is a prominent atheistic construct and ideology .
5. Therefore, by and large (not exclusively though) , it is people with an atheist mindset who are the practicing Heathens in American Society .

Does this sound like a reasonable and fair appraisal ? If not, is it the Christian Group who love and follow the 10 Commandments and Teachings of Christ , that are the Heathens in American Society ? Seems to me that the dishonor should go toward those who are definitively god-LESS in thought and deed , no ? Im not trying to be a Bigot by any means, but just trying to shed light on the Posters assertion .
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Old 11-19-2011, 12:22 PM
 
Location: Seattle bound
284 posts, read 421,091 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 007.5 View Post
I think we can be make a logical deductive argument in this manner then :

1. There are such a people group called Heathens in American Society.
2. Heathens are those who practice wanton immorality and anarchy and operate under the catalyst of apathy toward morality and good ethical frameworks so they can live as they like (willful rebellion) which is detectable and measurable in society today .
3. Such practice is based squarely on moral relativism to free one up to act as he/she desires , to maximize total automony in ones life, under the guise of no ultimate moral accountability to be concerned about.
4. Moral relativism is a prominent atheistic construct and ideology .
5. Therefore, by and large (not exclusively though) , it is people with an atheist mindset who are the practicing Heathens in American Society .

Does this sound like a reasonable and fair appraisal ? If not, is it the Christian Group who love and follow the 10 Commandments and Teachings of Christ , that are the Heathens in American Society ? Seems to me that the dishonor should go toward those who are definitively god-LESS in thought and deed , no ? Im not trying to be a Bigot by any means, but just trying to shed light on the Posters assertion .
Your reasoning is based on the faulty assumptions that "Heathens" (which I assume includes all people not Christian) practice "wanton immorality and anarchy" whereas "Christians" which would include all peoples not in the Heathen group do not = and therefore invalid.
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Old 11-19-2011, 02:02 PM
 
2,996 posts, read 4,917,516 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wscottling View Post
Your reasoning is based on the faulty assumptions that "Heathens" (which I assume includes all people not Christian) practice "wanton immorality and anarchy" whereas "Christians" which would include all peoples not in the Heathen group do not = and therefore invalid.
I am using the word 'Heathen' as follows from the online dictionary sub-category definition : 'an irreligious, uncultured, or uncivilized person' . I think most would agree that such a person exhibits immorality and possibly anarchy on a frequent basis. Do you think Heathens are BEST represented by Atheists in american society ? ( Note, i do not know why it started printing in blue).
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