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Old 12-20-2011, 08:03 AM
 
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I agree. There often seems to crop up this insistence that there has to be a 'Why' behind it. If we talk about occurrences - like the log - jams - that appear to be just random factors combining for no special reason to produce an effect which may or may not butterfly effect to produce a whole local minor ecology, we get this insistence that it cannot have happened 'by chance'. In all the cases we can find, that is just what has happened. Making it the size of a planet or even a cosmos does not need to make any the more statistically improbable that it was not planned.

King David 8 might ague that all the factors combining - the stream, the logs, the mud, the moss, the bugs, the mice the bushes...all that coming together...well, it's as improbable as whirlwind in a junkyard producing a Jumbo - jet. Obviously it isn't. If it was totally random then yes, that situation wouldn't be likely, but with natural laws in place - and nobody has to 'Make' natural laws - the result is hardly unexpected.

The problem seems to be some people getting their heads around the idea that very complex physical laws can be inherent in physical matter and the ways it combines, without anyone having to Pass it like State legislature.
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Old 12-20-2011, 11:59 AM
 
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Whether you look for purpose or not, your genetics has a wealth of information gathered over the years by your biology. Biology throughout the fossil record exhibits a slow information gathering process, the precambrian era has certain creatures, then cambrian another more complex group, jurrassic and so forth... and our genes, a double helix, four molecule bio-construction set of drawings for self assembly uses only 20 or 21 (I cant remember, but the point is made) amino acids to produce us! Molecules and elements and even the quantum particles in atoms all exhibit this disposition or affinity to form more complex structures, structures that hold information about where they were made... etc. I find a link between the occurance of life and evolution of life to be inclusive of the properties of mass and energy, and therefore I am only an extension of the affinity to evolve, only that I am a complex grouping of molecules ( A Human Being) that interacts with other groupings of molecules, through TECHNOLOGY instead of biology. We are gathering information at an unprecedented rate, which is exciting, and the ability to share information is easier than ever before. The future holds that carbon based life forms giving rise to silicon based life forms (AI), which will be the next paridigm in our evolution and an extension of the predisposition to gather information and become masters of our environment and therefore our universe. I would also like to add that as an extension of us, AI (Artificial Intelligence) will merge with biology and basically technology already is a growing part of our lives.... I see examples of this everyday.
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Old 12-20-2011, 12:02 PM
 
Location: Golden, CO
2,108 posts, read 2,501,673 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Werone View Post
Whether you look for purpose or not, your genetics has a wealth of information gathered over the years by your biology. Biology throughout the fossil record exhibits a slow information gathering process, the precambrian era has certain creatures, then cambrian another more complex group, jurrassic and so forth... and our genes, a double helix, four molecule bio-construction set of drawings for self assembly uses only 20 or 21 (I cant remember, but the point is made) amino acids to produce us! Molecules and elements and even the quantum particles in atoms all exhibit this disposition or affinity to form more complex structures, structures that hold information about where they were made... etc. I find a link between the occurance of life and evolution of life to be inclusive of the properties of mass and energy, and therefore I am only an extension of the affinity to evolve, only that I am a complex grouping of molecules ( A Human Being) that interacts with other groupings of molecules, through TECHNOLOGY instead of biology. We are gathering information at an unprecedented rate, which is exciting, and the ability to share information is easier than ever before. The future holds that carbon based life forms giving rise to silicon based life forms (AI), which will be the next paridigm in our evolution and an extension of the predisposition to gather information and become masters of our environment and therefore our universe.
I completely agree with your ever word in this post, and none of it rebuts the points I made in my post to you.
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Old 12-20-2011, 04:37 PM
 
1,281 posts, read 1,063,399 times
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Originally Posted by Hueffenhardt View Post
I completely agree with your ever word in this post, and none of it rebuts the points I made in my post to you.
Understood.
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Old 07-06-2016, 01:10 PM
 
1,882 posts, read 1,444,779 times
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Originally Posted by Hueffenhardt View Post
I am an atheist and I am an:

1) existential nihilist in that I believe that life has no intrinsic meaning or value. I believe it takes a mind to give life meaning or value, and I don't believe the cosmos has a mind. We, with our minds, can give our lives meaning and value, but meaning and value don't exist without a mind bestowing them onto something. No god created us for a purpose. We are just here.

2) moral nihilist in that I believe morality does not exist as something inherent to objective reality. I don't believe good and bad just exist out there if there is no mind to make that judgement. Imagine a world without humans, animals kill each other, etc. But, nothing is "bad" until some human comes along with a mind and decides some behavior is bad based on some value, that is ultimately arbitrary. Does he value sustainability, life, individuality, cohesiveness, etc. Now, I do believe we can and do create subjective moralities and that is okay, but it must be remembered that they are human constructs.

3) If I understand it correctly, I am a epistemological nihilist as well in that I believe that there is really only one thing that we can solidly, undoubtably know, and that is "something is happening". Everything else is based on assumptions that might be wrong. For all we know we really could be a brain in a vat like in the movie Matrix.

4) I believe that makes me a metaphysical nihilist as well because I believe it is possible that there might be no objects at all. All reality might be this phenomenon I call my mind. I don't think that is the case, but I must admit that it might be, and that is all it takes for me to be a metaphysical nihilist.

As far as I can tell, I am not a mereological nihilist, political nihilist, or radical nihilist.
On the question of whether or not there exists a God: nobody can accurately state there is or isn't a God. You can disbelieve in a God, but you can't state as a matter of fact that 'no God created us for a purpose'. How could you or anyone else make such a definitive claim?

Maybe there is a God or something supernatural overseeing the world and the universe. And if so, then all of these philosophical issues and concerns would be rendered meaningless.
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Old 07-06-2016, 01:25 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,104,852 times
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Originally Posted by AnthonyJ34 View Post
On the question of whether or not there exists a God: nobody can accurately state there is or isn't a God. You can disbelieve in a God, but you can't state as a matter of fact that 'no God created us for a purpose'. How could you or anyone else make such a definitive claim?
Most atheists don't make a knowledge claim here, only a belief claim (they see no valid reason to believe).

Nihilism is not a necessary result of atheism. It's a separate question.

There are those who argue that nihilism is the likely or even only possible outcome of an atheistic view, but this usually has in mind a very broad definition of nihilism as well as a misunderstanding of nihilism's actual and necessary implications. True nihilism holds that nothing is knowable with any degree of useful probability. In my experience that is not a view that the vast majority of atheists hold. What they DO often believe is that there is no inherent, externally bestowed meaning or purpose other than what we make for ourselves, a notion that many theists stand needlessly in horror of and read way too much into. Theists are often addicted to the notion that "there must be" some kind of cosmic significance to their existence, and that in our way of thinking lies madness (or, at least, sadness). Not so. That is ironically much more of a problem for atheists who are former theists, and is an artifact of their mindset of origin. Atheists who have never been theists seldom even think in these terms.
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Old 07-06-2016, 08:52 PM
 
Location: Type 0.7 Kardashev
10,577 posts, read 7,293,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyJ34 View Post
On the question of whether or not there exists a God: nobody can accurately state there is or isn't a God. You can disbelieve in a God, but you can't state as a matter of fact that 'no God created us for a purpose'. How could you or anyone else make such a definitive claim?
On the question of whether or not there exist leprechauns: nobody can accurately state there are or aren't leprechauns. You can disbelieve in leprechauns, but you can't state as a matter of fact that 'no leprechauns horde gold at the end or rainbows'. How could you or anyone else make such a definitive claim?
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Old 07-06-2016, 10:36 PM
 
1,882 posts, read 1,444,779 times
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Originally Posted by Unsettomati View Post
On the question of whether or not there exist leprechauns: nobody can accurately state there are or aren't leprechauns. You can disbelieve in leprechauns, but you can't state as a matter of fact that 'no leprechauns horde gold at the end or rainbows'. How could you or anyone else make such a definitive claim?
I can't make such a claim. Maybe a leprechaun created us in his image? The point is we can't possibly know everything. As intelligent and advanced as humans are, humans are still very limited and fallible creatures. That truth hurts some people's egos, but it's true. No harm in just saying 'we don't know' or 'we can't know' when discussing certain metaphysical topics. Better than trying to be cute. 😋
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Old 07-07-2016, 03:19 AM
 
39,266 posts, read 10,922,331 times
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Originally Posted by mordant View Post
Most atheists don't make a knowledge claim here, only a belief claim (they see no valid reason to believe).

Nihilism is not a necessary result of atheism. It's a separate question.

There are those who argue that nihilism is the likely or even only possible outcome of an atheistic view, but this usually has in mind a very broad definition of nihilism as well as a misunderstanding of nihilism's actual and necessary implications. True nihilism holds that nothing is knowable with any degree of useful probability. In my experience that is not a view that the vast majority of atheists hold. What they DO often believe is that there is no inherent, externally bestowed meaning or purpose other than what we make for ourselves, a notion that many theists stand needlessly in horror of and read way too much into. Theists are often addicted to the notion that "there must be" some kind of cosmic significance to their existence, and that in our way of thinking lies madness (or, at least, sadness). Not so. That is ironically much more of a problem for atheists who are former theists, and is an artifact of their mindset of origin. Atheists who have never been theists seldom even think in these terms.
I rather suspect that "Nihilism" in the theist mind translates as "They don't believe any of the things we do, therefore they must be really Bad people".

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyJ34 View Post
I can't make such a claim. Maybe a leprechaun created us in his image? The point is we can't possibly know everything. As intelligent and advanced as humans are, humans are still very limited and fallible creatures. That truth hurts some people's egos, but it's true. No harm in just saying 'we don't know' or 'we can't know' when discussing certain metaphysical topics. Better than trying to be cute. ��
That pretty much sums up the atheist position. If you take the point on board, we probably have a lot of common discussion -ground.
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Old 07-15-2016, 06:58 AM
 
13,493 posts, read 5,023,330 times
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Originally Posted by TheEarthBeneathMe View Post
I've been an Atheist for a very long time, but just recently made the connection "Holy crap - I'm a Nihilist too!"

Any others?
No, they seem to reject things just to reject them. So the question is "why reject everything?" why not reject too much rejecting?
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