U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Atheism and Agnosticism
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 12-20-2011, 02:21 PM
 
Location: Northridge/Porter Ranch, Calif.
22,383 posts, read 27,587,732 times
Reputation: 6540

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Wrong answer. The answer is 'How do you know they are anything more than fiction?' The way it works is: the burden of proof is on the claimant, not on the person questioning the claim. Where is the evidence that these Critters are anything more that imaginary.

Op said " However, I am interested in discussing my spiritual and occult beliefs and ideas with people who are atheists or agnostic, simply because I feel (or hope) it could be interesting. I am interested in different perspectives and am interested in other people's take on my views (as long as the're polite to me, of course.)"

I actually don't see this going anywhere. For atheists and rationalists, reading Lovecraft may be entertaining (I read a lot of his stuff myself some time ago and enjoyed it) but there are better things to do than adding a whole lot of unvalidated beliefs to the morass of unvalidated beliefs in which the deluded human race presently appears to be mired.
The person I replied to claimed that God, heaven, the afterlife, etc is "fiction." Since what he said is an opinion, not a fact, my answer was not "wrong."

Since I can't be "proven" by any mortals, the burden of proof lies with no one.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 12-20-2011, 06:09 PM
 
16,600 posts, read 14,084,987 times
Reputation: 20563
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleet View Post
How do you know it's "fiction." The answer is... you don't.
Easy. "Prove it."

The one making the claim has the burden of proof. Since the OP readily admits there is no proof. Than there is no FACT.

Lack of fact = fiction.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-20-2011, 06:17 PM
 
16,600 posts, read 14,084,987 times
Reputation: 20563
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleet View Post
The person I replied to claimed that God, heaven, the afterlife, etc is "fiction." Since what he said is an opinion, not a fact, my answer was not "wrong."

Since I can't be "proven" by any mortals, the burden of proof lies with no one.
First. I am not a "he".

Second, it is fiction BECAUSE YOU CANNOT PROVE ANY OF IT. That is why its called "faith" when you believe in it.

Non-literary definition of fiction:

1. something feigned, invented, or imagined; a made-up story: We've all heard the fiction of her being in delicate health.
2 .the act of feigning, inventing, or imagining.

3.an imaginary thing or event, postulated for the purposes of argument or explanation.


The supernatural (in ANY form) meets all of those definitions.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-20-2011, 09:38 PM
 
9,412 posts, read 11,736,470 times
Reputation: 20226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleet View Post
The person I replied to claimed that God, heaven, the afterlife, etc is "fiction." Since what he said is an opinion, not a fact, my answer was not "wrong."

Since I can't be "proven" by any mortals, the burden of proof lies with no one.
No the burden of proof lies with the one making the bold claim. If I claim there are unicorns with pink horns I better have some facts and evidence to back up my claim, otherwise it is simply the mouth flapping with nothing concrete to back it all up.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-21-2011, 12:20 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
15,310 posts, read 10,346,709 times
Reputation: 2612
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiritual_Occultist View Post
I find it very interesting and entertaining and it gives me something to read about, .......
So would gardening.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-21-2011, 03:46 AM
 
16,600 posts, read 14,084,987 times
Reputation: 20563
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
So would gardening.
Or they could just read fiction that doesn't pretend to be anything else. I recommend Brandon Sanderson.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-21-2011, 04:50 AM
 
63 posts, read 43,559 times
Reputation: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
So would gardening.
Ah, gardening's not for me, I'm afraid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Or they could just read fiction that doesn't pretend to be anything else. I recommend Brandon Sanderson.
I appreciate the suggestion, but I believe in the validity of the occult material and I want to stay with it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-21-2011, 06:29 AM
 
39,155 posts, read 10,865,034 times
Reputation: 5091
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleet View Post
The person I replied to claimed that God, heaven, the afterlife, etc is "fiction." Since what he said is an opinion, not a fact, my answer was not "wrong."

Since I can't be "proven" by any mortals, the burden of proof lies with no one.
Ah, right. But the same argument applies, though it requires a bit more ground rule - setting than just taking what appears to be fiction as fiction until some good evidence is adduced that it is more than fiction.

The bulk of the evidence is that there is no really sound evidence for God, heaven or an afterlife and quite a lot of circumstantial reasons to doubt them.

Thus the default is not to believe (in the matter of God - claims that is called atheism) and it is indeed, for the claimant that these things are real and not 'fiction' to make a sound case. It is not for the doubter to do any more than present their valid reasons for doubting.

Thus you are inncorect. The burden of proof lies on you, not he. That is if you accept the rules of logic and verified evidence. There are apparently many who don't, while apparently claiming that they do.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-21-2011, 06:35 AM
 
10,452 posts, read 10,635,238 times
Reputation: 12537
Spiritual_Occultist, count me in as interested. Some of the members on this forum have been asking for a Spirituality sub-forum but I don't think there are enough threads to warrant one. So maybe if you started up a few threads that would justify having one! Look forward to reading your posts in the future.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-21-2011, 10:54 AM
 
Location: Ohio
19,929 posts, read 14,245,993 times
Reputation: 16107
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEarthBeneathMe View Post
I have a question - why do you feel the need to believe in the paranormal and occult?
Perhaps they should be defined.

Paranormal often includes things such as ESP, telepathy, telekinesis, clairvoyance, clairaudience, psychic phenomena, remote viewing, UFOs/extra-terrestrials, ghosts, reincarnation and other such things.

I'm not really big on ESP, telepathy, telekinesis, remote viewing or reincarnation, and more or less dismiss psychic phenomena.

I have no experience with clairaudience.

I do have experience with clairvoyants, and you would probably be shocked at the number of police departments that employ clairvoyants to find missing people.

I have had experiences with ghosts, often with other witnesses present. It isn't a matter of believing or not. There's a rational scientific explanation, and the fact that we are not aware of what it is, is not a reason to believe in an after-life or a god or demons (or daemons) and spirits.

As far as UFOs, well, naturally anything that is unidentified and flies is a UFO. As far as extra-terrestrials, your government believes they are, and you should too.

The "occult" usually focuses on what is considered to be lost knowledge or arts. That would include witchcraft, along with alchemy, and also astrology.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEarthBeneathMe View Post
My own take on people who "do magic" is (and no offense intended) - it's a way for people who feel powerless to feel in control.

And in that sense - it's just like any other "religion" - only darker and more taboo (which I believe is the draw for many).
Yes, that's so.

They basically threw down a wooden crutch to take a shiny aluminum crutch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
Mr. Occultist, I don't think you will get any insight from us Atheists.

We don't believe in anything supernatural at all. You do believe in the supernatural.

That is huge difference with no middle ground.
I prefer the term "unexplained phenomena" rather than "supernatural."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
While most paranormal claims are pure bunk, I think some paranormal events actually stem from currently unknown/misunderstood natural phenomenon.
That's how I would characterize it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Atheism and Agnosticism
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top