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Old 12-21-2011, 04:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiritual_Occultist View Post
Ah, gardening's not for me, I'm afraid.



I appreciate the suggestion, but I believe in the validity of the occult material and I want to stay with it.
Then why are you here? You are asking people who chose reason over belief to validate beliefs you have despite the overwhelming amount of evidence showing they are make believe.
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Old 12-21-2011, 04:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
Not necessarily. I'm a godless heathen but believe in many aspects of the "supernatural". While most paranormal claims are pure bunk, I think some paranormal events actually stem from currently unknown/misunderstood natural phenomenon.

There are ALWAYS shades of grey.

To the OP, though... don't buy the whole "knowing" argument... we have never trully "known" the whole story and while science is light-years ahead of religion, it's still incomplete and ultimately an insufficient tool for the job. Knowledge is a neverending progression, not a endpoint.

Of course that hardly means spiritualism and the occult are better ways to understand the universe, but it is an interesting subject nevertheless...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
Perhaps they should be defined.

Paranormal often includes things such as ESP, telepathy, telekinesis, clairvoyance, clairaudience, psychic phenomena, remote viewing, UFOs/extra-terrestrials, ghosts, reincarnation and other such things.

I'm not really big on ESP, telepathy, telekinesis, remote viewing or reincarnation, and more or less dismiss psychic phenomena.

I have no experience with clairaudience.

I do have experience with clairvoyants, and you would probably be shocked at the number of police departments that employ clairvoyants to find missing people.

I have had experiences with ghosts, often with other witnesses present. It isn't a matter of believing or not. There's a rational scientific explanation, and the fact that we are not aware of what it is, is not a reason to believe in an after-life or a god or demons (or daemons) and spirits.

As far as UFOs, well, naturally anything that is unidentified and flies is a UFO. As far as extra-terrestrials, your government believes they are, and you should too.

The "occult" usually focuses on what is considered to be lost knowledge or arts. That would include witchcraft, along with alchemy, and also astrology.

Yes, that's so.

They basically threw down a wooden crutch to take a shiny aluminum crutch.

I prefer the term "unexplained phenomena" rather than "supernatural."

That's how I would characterize it.
Excellent posts.
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Old 12-21-2011, 05:49 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post

I have had experiences with ghosts, often with other witnesses present. It isn't a matter of believing or not. There's a rational scientific explanation, and the fact that we are not aware of what it is, is not a reason to believe in an after-life or a god or demons (or daemons) and spirits.
I'd absolutely love to have an experience with ghosts.
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Old 12-21-2011, 09:42 PM
 
Location: playing in the colorful Colorado dirt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
First. I am not a "he".

Second, it is fiction BECAUSE YOU CANNOT PROVE ANY OF IT. That is why its called "faith" when you believe in it.

Non-literary definition of fiction:

1. something feigned, invented, or imagined; a made-up story: We've all heard the fiction of her being in delicate health.
2 .the act of feigning, inventing, or imagining.

3.an imaginary thing or event, postulated for the purposes of argument or explanation.


The supernatural (in ANY form) meets all of those definitions.
Does that include or exclude Christianity?
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Old 12-23-2011, 08:12 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Then why are you here? You are asking people who chose reason over belief to validate beliefs you have despite the overwhelming amount of evidence showing they are make believe.
I don't think you have quite understood my reason for wanting to talk to people in this forum.

I do not want, nor expect, anyone here to validate any beliefs I might have. I simply want to talk to people who have different views on these matters than myself and hopefully get a conversation going. Thus, my reason for posting in this forum is simply: to talk with people that have different ideas.

Nothing more, nothing less.
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Old 12-23-2011, 08:30 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pamelaBeurman View Post
Does that include or exclude Christianity?
Why would it is exclude it? Christianity is based on the supernatural.
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Old 12-23-2011, 12:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiritual_Occultist View Post
I don't think you have quite understood my reason for wanting to talk to people in this forum.

I do not want, nor expect, anyone here to validate any beliefs I might have. I simply want to talk to people who have different views on these matters than myself and hopefully get a conversation going. Thus, my reason for posting in this forum is simply: to talk with people that have different ideas.

Nothing more, nothing less.
Yes, I see that. While it is quite interesting to see the various claims for Prognostication, spirit communication, NED's and the like, we don't, since we deal in what can be be checked up and verified, find a lot of point in discussing matters that are still very speculative. What this means is that we are as disinclined to consider a heap of spooky anecdotes which we cannot verify or check and when we can, we find we are being given a rather selective account.

Don't want to be closed minded about it so I suppose that you could make a case, though I wonder that it's even relevant to atheism, since proving telekinesis or astrology wouldn't prove a darn thing about gods, anymore than finding a giant squid proves anything about Bigfoot.
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Old 12-25-2011, 08:43 PM
 
16,598 posts, read 14,075,580 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiritual_Occultist View Post
I don't think you have quite understood my reason for wanting to talk to people in this forum.

I do not want, nor expect, anyone here to validate any beliefs I might have. I simply want to talk to people who have different views on these matters than myself and hopefully get a conversation going. Thus, my reason for posting in this forum is simply: to talk with people that have different ideas.

Nothing more, nothing less.
I don't think you understand my point.

What is there to talk about? You are going to give some spooky "I hear about..." story that cannot be verified, checked, or evaluated in any way. Then that is the end of the conversation since it is meaningless to discuss things that are not real.

If I wanted to talk about imaginary things as if they are real then I wouldn't be an atheist.
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Old 12-26-2011, 08:07 AM
 
63 posts, read 43,544 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
What is there to talk about? You are going to give some spooky "I hear about..." story that cannot be verified, checked, or evaluated in any way. Then that is the end of the conversation since it is meaningless to discuss things that are not real.
It doesn't necessarily have to be the end of the conversations - perhaps for you yourself it would be, but I'm sure there are at least a few atheists/agnostics who post in this forum that might be interested in discussing this stuff, even if they think there is a "natural" explanation, rather than supernatural.

For example, I might start a thread saying - here's what I think about so and so/such and such, here are some of my reasons. What do you guys think and what are your reasons for thinking so?

Then people reply, probably with different opinions, explain their reasons, they perhaps ask me to explain other reasons for the way I feel - we just have that kind of conversation, where we both explain our points of view to one another.

Even if you yourself may not be interested, I assume there are others here who might be.

I also like to come together with people who have opposing viewpoints and ways of looking at the world. I feel sometimes that people create too much division between people like me (spiritual people who are interested in magick, the occult, faeries) and those that are atheists. I don't like this kind of argumentative, "us against them" kind of attitude that can sometimes be displayed by both theists and atheists. In the end, we are all people, and most of us, whether theist or atheist, are good people.

I'm all for friendly discussion and debate and understanding between both groups. It is this way, in my view, that we can develop understanding of each other and understand where the other is coming from, without necessarily agreeing with them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
If I wanted to talk about imaginary things as if they are real then I wouldn't be an atheist.
I don't think that's really what people would be doing. For example, I more envision myself explaining why I believe such a phenomena may be real, my reasons for believing this, and asking people here their own thoughts and why they believe it not to be real. The difference is, they wouldn't be speaking of imaginary things (imaginary from their perspective, at least) as though they were real, they would be speaking of them as being unreal and giving their reasoning for thinking this way.

I, on the other hand, would be speaking of the phenomena as real, or at least possibly being real, and giving my reasons.
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Old 12-27-2011, 02:45 AM
 
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Perhaps the problem would be in posting here as it is agnosticim/Atheism. To post about supernatural stuff would seem not so much 'telling us about it' as Thom R would put it, but trying to get us to admit that there was a compelling case for the 'supernatural' and therefore we atheists were 'wrong' in denying it (which we don't actually do).

So I'd suggest that it is, being based more or Faith, (like a lot of other cult - stuff) more appropriate to R and P. I'm sure that you would find a lot of people there who would like to discuss the evidence of its reality and the theories behind it.
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