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Old 12-27-2011, 05:39 PM
 
63 posts, read 43,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Look, many of us have been very nice in trying to tell you that this is not the appropriate forum for that discussion. Apparently, we were too nice. For the majority of us it is of just no interest, which has been explained to you by multiple people. Second, it has nothing to do with this forum, which has been explained to you multiple times and again, apparently, in too polite a way.

This forum is for topics that are related to atheism or agnosticism in some way. None of the threads you have posted have been related to them in anyway. So do you really feel it is the "nice" thing to do to stand on our porch, continue to knock, despite being told repeatedly "no thanks"?
I've seen threads in this very forum entitled, for example, "What do atheists think of Wicca, paganism, etc" (I think that was the general title) and "What do atheists think of Buddhism?"

Both such threads were in *this* forum and both were related to topics of religion or spirituality (okay, I suppose one could say that Buddhism isn't always a religion and can be more of a philosophy, but it is also officially recognised as a religion, and Wicca most definitely is a religion.)

My point is, those are examples of topics on religious or spiritual matters being created in this forum and as I recall, they were quite extensive threads. Nobody had a problem with them, they were accepted.

If I make a thread entitled "What do atheists think of magick" or some such other belief of mine, then in what way is that any different to those other threads that I mentioned (that reside in this forum itself.) And, if such a thread really would be out of place in this forum, then why were the other threads I alluded to allowed and tolerated here?

There's one such on the very first page of this forum, even - a thread asking atheists which religion they admire most. Some people have said none, some have chosen one.

Perhaps I was mistaken, but from looking around this forum, I thought it to be a place not where topics of spirituality and suchlike could not be discussed, but simply a place where a person could get the atheist perspective on these matters.

But again, that begs my question - if this is a forum in which people don't want threads pertaining at all to anything metaphysical or spiritual, then why were the Buddhism and Wicca threads not only received without complaint, but responded to by so many? I genuinely don't understand that. What I was hoping to do was the same as the people who started those particular threads.

How about this (which was what I was intending to do with my threads anyway) - if I want to discuss the subject generally, I create the thread in the R&P forum. But if I specifically want the atheist perspective (i.e. the thread title is something like, 'What do atheists think of...') then it would be appropriate here, wouldn't it? After all, doesn't it state somewhere on here that this is a place to ask atheists questions?
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Old 12-27-2011, 05:50 PM
 
63 posts, read 43,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tilli View Post
To give you a little perspective - you are basically doing exactly what you found so insulting.
Well, I don't think I am, really. What I found so insulting was not this person's different attitude, I am open to receiving different ideas and opinions to mine. What I found insulting was that he chose to personally insult me and be rude to me. I have not insulted anyone here personally and don't intend to, I disapprove of such rudeness.

I still maintain that threads specifically asking for an atheist's or agnostic's perspective on spiritual or paranormal matters are acceptable in this forum if you go by the guidelines laid out in one of the 'sticky' threads. In the 'no proselytizing' thread it is stated that the forum is for (among other things) those who "...are interested in posing non-confrontational questions to atheists or agnostics'. That is exactly what I would be doing.

When I get around to creating more threads of my own, I actually intend to place the majority of them in the R&P forum anyway. I just would ideally *like* to create some threads, specifically asking atheists and agnostics what they think of those things, and place them here as well. I don't think that in any way goes against the rules for this forum, since it's stated that asking questions is allowed.
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Old 12-27-2011, 06:01 PM
 
16,835 posts, read 14,285,024 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiritual_Occultist View Post
I've seen threads in this very forum entitled, for example, "What do atheists think of Wicca, paganism, etc" (I think that was the general title) and "What do atheists think of Buddhism?"

Both such threads were in *this* forum and both were related to topics of religion or spirituality (okay, I suppose one could say that Buddhism isn't always a religion and can be more of a philosophy, but it is also officially recognised as a religion, and Wicca most definitely is a religion.)
Because questions of religion DO RELATE to atheism. You have prefaced your threads with things that are not about religion at all, nor about atheism or agnosticism in particular.

The occult, HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ATHEISM. Buddihism, is a religion and therefore RELATED to theism, and thus atheists will have an opinion on it.

Quote:
My point is, those are examples of topics on religious or spiritual matters being created in this forum and as I recall, they were quite extensive threads. Nobody had a problem with them, they were accepted.
OMG. Are you really asking why things of a RELIGIOUS nature are topics in a forum whose one unifying factor has to do with their beliefs regarding RELIGION?!?!?!

Quote:
If I make a thread entitled "What do atheists think of magick" or some such other belief of mine, then in what way is that any different to those other threads that I mentioned (that reside in this forum itself.) And, if such a thread really would be out of place in this forum, then why were the other threads I alluded to allowed and tolerated here?
BECAUSE THEY ARE ABOUT RELIGION. It is literally no wonder why that person insulted you.

Atheism, is directly related to beliefs about gods and religions, even if it is the negative stance.

Quote:
There's one such on the very first page of this forum, even - a thread asking atheists which religion they admire most. Some people have said none, some have chosen one.

Perhaps I was mistaken, but from looking around this forum, I thought it to be a place not where topics of spirituality and suchlike could not be discussed, but simply a place where a person could get the atheist perspective on these matters.
It is a place for atheism to be discussed. Atheism is relevant to any discussion of religion AND NOT AT ALL ABOUT ESP or any other made up crap you are into.

Quote:
But again, that begs my question - if this is a forum in which people don't want threads pertaining at all to anything metaphysical or spiritual, then why were the Buddhism and Wicca threads not only received without complaint, but responded to by so many? I genuinely don't understand that. What I was hoping to do was the same as the people who started those particular threads.
Are you really unaware, really? That abyssmally unaware?

Quote:
How about this (which was what I was intending to do with my threads anyway) - if I want to discuss the subject generally, I create the thread in the R&P forum. But if I specifically want the atheist perspective (i.e. the thread title is something like, 'What do atheists think of...') then it would be appropriate here, wouldn't it? After all, doesn't it state somewhere on here that this is a place to ask atheists questions?
Considering what you are talking about is neither a religion, nor a philosophy, nor related to atheism or agnosticism, WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO PUT IT IN THESE FORUMS AT ALL?

I am sure there are plenty of whack job forums out there for your to join.

Besides you have gotten a fairly good consensus of the atheist opinion already. We think your ideas are groundless, pointless and baseless at BEST. Do you want us to call them stupid so you can go on feeling like we are mean?
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Old 12-27-2011, 06:20 PM
 
63 posts, read 43,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Because questions of religion DO RELATE to atheism. You have prefaced your threads with things that are not about religion at all, nor about atheism or agnosticism in particular.

The occult, HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ATHEISM. Buddihism, is a religion and therefore RELATED to theism, and thus atheists will have an opinion on it.



OMG. Are you really asking why things of a RELIGIOUS nature are topics in a forum whose one unifying factor has to do with their beliefs regarding RELIGION?!?!?!



BECAUSE THEY ARE ABOUT RELIGION. It is literally no wonder why that person insulted you.

Atheism, is directly related to beliefs about gods and religions, even if it is the negative stance.



It is a place for atheism to be discussed. Atheism is relevant to any discussion of religion AND NOT AT ALL ABOUT ESP or any other made up crap you are into.



Are you really unaware, really? That abyssmally unaware?
Well, "naive" is the term I prefer. I assumed, incorrectly, as you have pointed out, that if topics on religion were welcome here (and related to atheism) then so were topics on the occult and the paranormal. Although the occult is different in quite a few significant ways to many mainstream religions, I tend to put it all under the same umbrella. Thus, upon seeing threads in this forum about Buddhism and Wicca, I assumed that it would be all right to create threads asking your opinions on the paranormal and occult subjects.

From the way you have explained, though, I see why I was mistaken. I genuinely was not aware that threads to do with religion were accepted but that threads to do with subjects like ESP would not be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
I am sure there are plenty of whack job forums out there for your to join.
Oh, I'm a member of some (of course, I entirely disagree that they are "whack job" forums, just as I disagree that what I am interested in is "made up crap", but that is just a matter of different perspectives.)

But okay, you have explained things more clearly to me now. I thought since threads on Buddhism and Wicca were welcome here, then so would threads on things like paranormal subjects. I see now why I was wrong. But perhaps you can see why I made that mistake?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Do you want us to call them stupid so you can go on feeling like we are mean?
Hang on - when and where did I ever say that I thought any of you were mean?

I don't feel that way at all - people in this forum have been very kind to me so far and I appreciate that.

If you are referring to the person I spoke about who insulted me - that was one individual, who had nothing to do with this forum or website, and I certainly don't see him as representative of atheists as a whole.

Nowhere did I say, or even imply, that I thought anyone in this forum was mean. I don't think or feel that way.

I apologise for my misunderstanding but again, I honestly believed that if threads about religion were welcome here, then so were threads related to the occult. I now see I was mistaken, so thank you for clearing that up. I do need things to be spelled out directly to me sometimes, so thank you for clearing up my misapprehension.

Peace.
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Old 12-27-2011, 09:29 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
8,733 posts, read 10,077,425 times
Reputation: 7542
I wonder if I would be being a 'bad' Christian if I want to watch "Religulous?" I'd never heard of this Bill Maher movie until recently; but the premise seems fascinating. I don't know if Christians have watched this movie or refuse to, but I do want to see it. TY.
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Old 12-27-2011, 10:41 PM
 
40,599 posts, read 27,131,705 times
Reputation: 6124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiritual_Occultist View Post
Well, "naive" is the term I prefer. I assumed, incorrectly, as you have pointed out, that if topics on religion were welcome here (and related to atheism) then so were topics on the occult and the paranormal. Although the occult is different in quite a few significant ways to many mainstream religions, I tend to put it all under the same umbrella. Thus, upon seeing threads in this forum about Buddhism and Wicca, I assumed that it would be all right to create threads asking your opinions on the paranormal and occult subjects.

From the way you have explained, though, I see why I was mistaken. I genuinely was not aware that threads to do with religion were accepted but that threads to do with subjects like ESP would not be.



Oh, I'm a member of some (of course, I entirely disagree that they are "whack job" forums, just as I disagree that what I am interested in is "made up crap", but that is just a matter of different perspectives.)

But okay, you have explained things more clearly to me now. I thought since threads on Buddhism and Wicca were welcome here, then so would threads on things like paranormal subjects. I see now why I was wrong. But perhaps you can see why I made that mistake?



Hang on - when and where did I ever say that I thought any of you were mean?

I don't feel that way at all - people in this forum have been very kind to me so far and I appreciate that.

If you are referring to the person I spoke about who insulted me - that was one individual, who had nothing to do with this forum or website, and I certainly don't see him as representative of atheists as a whole.

Nowhere did I say, or even imply, that I thought anyone in this forum was mean. I don't think or feel that way.

I apologise for my misunderstanding but again, I honestly believed that if threads about religion were welcome here, then so were threads related to the occult. I now see I was mistaken, so thank you for clearing that up. I do need things to be spelled out directly to me sometimes, so thank you for clearing up my misapprehension.

Peace.
Spiritual . . . lkb0714 does NOT speak for this forum and has NO official role in moderating or determining the appropriateness of topics for the three forums represented here. Tell him/ her to take a hike and post whatever you are interested in of a spiritual or philosophical nature. Spirituality is definitely an appropriate topic.
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Old 12-28-2011, 12:32 AM
 
16,196 posts, read 18,127,498 times
Reputation: 16000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doll Eyes View Post
I wonder if I would be being a 'bad' Christian if I want to watch "Religulous?" I'd never heard of this Bill Maher movie until recently; but the premise seems fascinating. I don't know if Christians have watched this movie or refuse to, but I do want to see it. TY.
I don't see that watching it will make you a bad Christian. It's quite a funny movie. You may be offended by it or you may choose to question your religion after watching it.
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Old 12-28-2011, 01:32 AM
 
7,801 posts, read 5,338,000 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiritual_Occultist View Post
That's not making stuff up off the top of my head.
I mean the "you" in the plural sense when I use it thusly. I mean it as "you people" for example and I by no means you personally. I am talking about "You" as in all of you people espousing this unsubstantiated paranormal nonsense. Given the lack of any evidence, argument, data or reasons lending the ideas any credence at all I have no other option open to me other than to point out this stuff is just made of the top of "your" head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiritual_Occultist View Post
I assumed, perhaps naively and incorrectly, that people might just be interested in discussing this with me, despite not believing in any of it themselves.
I have tried to point out why this indeed was naive. "You" have essentially just made something up and want to talk about it, but only in a way that assumes what you have made up is true so as to avoid any obligation to substantiate what you are saying in any way.

But why would we want to? As I pointed out I could make something up such as my detachable magic hands. Why would any one want to discuss it when it is so patently made up and baseless? Why would anyone want to spend time talking about what color hair my imaginary friend has? Why do people watch real sport instead of just inventing one in our heads and talking about which team is winning?

If it is evidently made up nonsense then what exactly do you want us to talk about?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiritual_Occultist View Post
why do you say that I have based my conclusions and ideas on "nothing"? I've based them on the material I've read
I think I addressed this with the you / "you" explanation above. However I am happy to repeat it. I mean that the subject itself is based on nothing. Maybe you are basing it on something you have read from some Charlatan or other (like maybe Deepak Chopra to name one example) but these writers too are basing it on nothing.

What I mean essentially is that "you people" are happy to talk about spirits and magic and ESP and magic voices on tape recorders (CalGuy for example) or out of body experiences and all kinds of woo but these are all subjects that you are just discussing for no reason apparent to me. Not one of them is ever supported by arguments, evidence, data or reasons to lend them even a modicum of credence.

It clearly makes a lot of people feel good to talk about or think about such things but feeling good about a fantasy does not equate to that fantasy being real, true or even credible.

So yes your discourse is "based on nothing" as I say. That "nothing" might be deferred by several people because it is not you basing it on nothing but someone you have read but at the base of it there is nothing. You talk of people who are "advanced" in spiritual matters but all I hear when you say that is "people who have been talking this woo longer than you have".
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Old 12-28-2011, 05:41 AM
 
63 posts, read 43,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
I mean the "you" in the plural sense when I use it thusly. I mean it as "you people" for example and I by no means you personally. I am talking about "You" as in all of you people espousing this unsubstantiated paranormal nonsense. Given the lack of any evidence, argument, data or reasons lending the ideas any credence at all I have no other option open to me other than to point out this stuff is just made of the top of "your" head.


I think I addressed this with the you / "you" explanation above. However I am happy to repeat it. I mean that the subject itself is based on nothing. Maybe you are basing it on something you have read from some Charlatan or other (like maybe Deepak Chopra to name one example) but these writers too are basing it on nothing.

What I mean essentially is that "you people" are happy to talk about spirits and magic and ESP and magic voices on tape recorders (CalGuy for example) or out of body experiences and all kinds of woo but these are all subjects that you are just discussing for no reason apparent to me. Not one of them is ever supported by arguments, evidence, data or reasons to lend them even a modicum of credence.

It clearly makes a lot of people feel good to talk about or think about such things but feeling good about a fantasy does not equate to that fantasy being real, true or even credible.

So yes your discourse is "based on nothing" as I say. That "nothing" might be deferred by several people because it is not you basing it on nothing but someone you have read but at the base of it there is nothing. You talk of people who are "advanced" in spiritual matters but all I hear when you say that is "people who have been talking this woo longer than you have".
Thank you for clarifying, Nozzferrahhtoo, I did indeed think you were speaking of me personally, rather than "you" in the general sense. I understand better now.

One thing I am interested in - when did the term "woo" start to be used to describe subjects within the paranormal and the occult? I've seen the word bandied about on several websites/forums, but does anyone know who started it off and when and where? Until a few months ago, the only setting in which I'd seen the word used was in the original sense of the word - to try to woo someone of romantic interest.
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Old 12-28-2011, 06:41 AM
 
7,801 posts, read 5,338,000 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiritual_Occultist View Post
One thing I am interested in - when did the term "woo" start to be used to describe subjects within the paranormal and the occult?
Not entirely sure myself but I have heard the etymology of it being assigned to both Micheal Shermer and James Randi. For all I know either or both could be true. I have certainly heard both using it on many occasions so even if they are not the origin they certainly did a lot to popularize it. Especially as they are two great names in debunking a lot of the tripe many of these people claim.

I would not be surprised if it is a pun on the seduction of romantic woo, combined with a pun on the "Woooooooooo" noise we make to derided those talking about things like ghosts.
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