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Old 01-01-2012, 03:53 AM
 
39,293 posts, read 10,937,819 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by looking4answers12 View Post
Hi. Can you do me a favor for us "simple minded" folk.
Can you let me know if that was a "yes" or a "no"?
I might clarify that I pointed out that this cannot correctly be answered by a simple Yes or No. It is a loaded question, (The respondent becomes committed to this proposition when he gives any direct answer) based on the complex question fallacy (1).

Of course the answer is 'No', but I have to explain that this is not denial of the possibility, just that I don't know and what I don't know I shouldn't 'believe' or take as fact without knowing.

Does that answer your point?

If so you you care to answer mine?

(1)
Complex question, trick question, multiple question or plurium interrogationum (Latin, "of many questions") is a question that has a presupposition that is complex. The presupposition is a proposition that is presumed to be acceptable to the respondent when the question is asked. The respondent becomes committed to this proposition when he gives any direct answer. The presupposition is called "complex" because it is a conjunctive proposition, a disjunctive proposition, or a conditional proposition. It could also be another type of proposition that contains some logical connective in a way that makes it have several parts that are component propositions.[1]
Complex questions can but do not have to be fallacious, as in being an informal fallacy.[1] (Wiki)
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Old 01-01-2012, 10:12 PM
 
Location: FL
1,727 posts, read 2,179,718 times
Reputation: 1039
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
I might clarify that I pointed out that this cannot correctly be answered by a simple Yes or No. It is a loaded question, (The respondent becomes committed to this proposition when he gives any direct answer) based on the complex question fallacy (1).

Of course the answer is 'No', but I have to explain that this is not denial of the possibility, just that I don't know and what I don't know I shouldn't 'believe' or take as fact without knowing.

Does that answer your point?

If so you you care to answer mine?

(1)
Complex question, trick question, multiple question or plurium interrogationum (Latin, "of many questions") is a question that has a presupposition that is complex. The presupposition is a proposition that is presumed to be acceptable to the respondent when the question is asked. The respondent becomes committed to this proposition when he gives any direct answer. The presupposition is called "complex" because it is a conjunctive proposition, a disjunctive proposition, or a conditional proposition. It could also be another type of proposition that contains some logical connective in a way that makes it have several parts that are component propositions.[1]
Complex questions can but do not have to be fallacious, as in being an informal fallacy.[1] (Wiki)

First, I wasn't trying to make "a point. Yes, for the most part, you did answer my question. My interpretation of what you said is 1 - It really shouldn't have been a "yes or no" question and it required a more complicated answer. 2 - You suspected that the question wasn't a genuine question just for the purpos of asking a question, but to maybe try to corner you into something? This is just my interpretation and I could be completely wrong.

Although we both speak/write English, I think we speak quite diferently. I guess your education leve is higher than mine, so you generaly do tend to speak "over my head" at times, so when I ask you a question, it usually really is just to clarify and not some veiled attempt to imply something.

But, sometimes yes, I have been guilty of asking an open ended question while trying to prove a point. Usually if and when I do that, I would admit it openly.

Are we even talking about the same thing? I'm not sure, but I am trying!
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Old 01-01-2012, 11:11 PM
 
Location: 50/50..Henderson,NV..Rockford,IL
6 posts, read 11,519 times
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firstborn888,

Why concern yourself, your mind is made up. Never add a negative or positive to any process unless you wish to be effected by that negative or positive. Drama is the enemy.

Good luck
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Old 01-03-2012, 04:09 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,727,950 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7117 View Post
firstborn888,

Why concern yourself, your mind is made up.
But... it's not made up. Knowledge and understanding are ever evolving.
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Old 01-03-2012, 04:16 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,727,950 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
My reaction is to ask, do you? And if not, why ask us? And if you do, on what rests your basis for that belief?

However, though this looks like a goalpost - moving question, it also has the element of developing the argument. So I'll tell you the truth.

(1) If anything exists beyond the physical universe, then that is also part of the physical universe.

(2) If there is nothing beyond the physical universe, then that 'exists' as a concept of absence (which can be quite important - absence of interior makes a bucket useful. Absence of value makes a Zero useful, absence of God - belief, empowers the mind)

(3) That said, since nobody knows anything about it, speculation is unlikely to be more than diverting mind -exercise and 'belief' even in the sense of making a reasonably informed guess is just not on the table.

So
(a) what about it?

(b) can I repeat my question to you? Do you believe anything exists beyond the physical universe? And if not, why ask us? And if you do, what is your basis for that belief?
I'm not sure what I believe right now - that's why I'm asking atheists to get your perspectives.
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Old 01-03-2012, 04:37 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,292,582 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
That is, doubts about your atheism? Ever?
How could I? There is no basis upon which to HAVE any.

The only way to have doubts about something is if there are reasons on offer on which to base those doubts.

However given the not just slight, but TOTAL lack of any evidence, argument, data or reasons to lend even a modicum of credence to the idea there is a god.... I am not sure what grounds you expect the doubts to grow on?
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Old 01-03-2012, 08:22 AM
 
Location: Golden, CO
2,108 posts, read 2,502,297 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
Then on to the next part: Do you believe anything exists beyond the physical universe?
I'll take a turn with this question.

I know that I do not know if anything exists beyond this physical universe. I suspect that our universe is just one among many universes and this whole collection of universes is referred to as the multiverse. I have no concrete evidence that the multiverse exists, so I do not declare that it does exist, but I believe it probably does exist. When I say believe, I mean I currently find it more likely than not. I am ok with believing something when there is currently not enough evidence to either prove or disprove, but there are some reasons or evidence to suggest something like that probably exists.

Another issue that has not been proven either way, but for which I have a belief because I find it more likely than not to exist, is I believe life probably does exist outside of our solar system, but I don't believe aliens have ever visited earth. I also believe that we will one day understand how neurons give rise to our conscious experience - I can't prove it, I am not asserting it, but I believe it.

I can't prove that there is no god nor any ghosts nor angels, but I don't believe they exist, because I find them very unlikely to exist. Since no one knows for sure, I acknowledge that I might be wrong. And since I could be wrong, I don't get too bothered by people who believe differently from me on these issues. The only people that bug me are those that claim to know what they cannot know because they won't even acknowledge the possibility I might be right.
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Old 01-03-2012, 07:49 PM
 
Location: NW NJ & SE Oahu
4,570 posts, read 5,414,315 times
Reputation: 4154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yzette View Post
It would be nice to think I'd see loved ones again in some kind of heavenly afterlife.
I'd love to see my dearly departed dogs up there, but the old bastid doesn't allow them!
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Old 01-03-2012, 08:14 PM
 
16,300 posts, read 24,996,471 times
Reputation: 8282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tantalust View Post
I'd love to see my dearly departed dogs up there, but the old bastid doesn't allow them!
I have always paid attention to ques from my dogs about whether a person could be trusted or was even a nice person. Of course he wouldn't want dogs around.
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Old 01-03-2012, 11:04 PM
 
40,193 posts, read 26,820,188 times
Reputation: 6059
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yzette View Post
Sometimes I wish I did have doubts. It would be nice to think I'd see loved ones again in some kind of heavenly afterlife.

But no. As Christopher Hitchens said, the only position that leaves me with no cognitive dissonance is atheism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tantalust View Post
I'd love to see my dearly departed dogs up there, but the old bastid doesn't allow them!
The skepticism of phsyicalists notwithstanding . . . our consciousness is in pure energy form and EVERY thought and feeling is permanent (unless altered by remorse or rethinking). Everything you held in Love within your consciousness will be with you after we are reborn as Spirit upon our death. Those parts of our consciousness that contain hate or other negative human emotions will be "refined" out. No need to believe it . . . save it as a surprise.

Last edited by MysticPhD; 01-03-2012 at 11:35 PM..
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