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Old 02-07-2012, 07:36 AM
 
707 posts, read 576,326 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenshi View Post
Opinion has nothing to do with it. The Theory of Evolution explains quite well why life is so complex. You should read a book on the subject some time. Your belief that anything complex requires a creator is flawed. After all, that creator would necessarily be complex and require a creator of its own, and that creator would require a creator, and so on in an infinite regression. It has to end somewhere, and the simplest and most likely possibility is that there isn't a creator at all, that life just sprung up similarly to how we have managed to make organic chemicals just spring up in the lab, and then evolved just as we have thoroughly proven it did. There's no need for a god in this scenario.
Evolution does not explain the origins. And to think the creator needs a creator and so on just shows our limited human thinking. And to say there is no need for a God does not mean there isn't one. And this thing about organic chemicals...do they spring up on their own? Of course not. There is some creation or intervention to get it started. More evidence that God exists and created us opposed to us just springing up on our own. Do you even realize the vastness of our universe? We are smaller that a grain of sand on all the beaches on the entire earth. Just came from nowhere? Dream on. Now that is what I call magic.
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Old 02-07-2012, 07:37 AM
 
707 posts, read 576,326 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Djuna View Post
Do you have no words of your own?
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Old 02-07-2012, 07:40 AM
 
707 posts, read 576,326 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
Not really. Note that this is NOT random chance, but the evolutionary model where *good* guesses are kept and those that are not correct are discarded along the way.

BBC News - Virtual monkeys write Shakespeare
Nice quote. One would have to be a real fool to actually believe that monkeys can re-write anything, let alone Shakespeare.
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Old 02-07-2012, 07:44 AM
 
707 posts, read 576,326 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KCfromNC View Post
I don't view faith as a reason to believe. It's more a rationalization for believing in something you know you shouldn't. So maybe in that sense it's a reason, but it's not reasonable to use as a basis for knowledge.
My reasons are quite personal as probably many others'. It's not like I sat down one day and said I'm going to believe. It's a personal experience that changed me. I don't expect you to understand but maybe as you hear from others your view about the way in which someone believes may change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KCfromNC View Post
How do you make the connection between "we can only directly sense certain wavelengths of light" and "therefore a supernatural creator god exists and is worried that we worship her"? Seems you've left out quite a bit of work.
I never made that statement.
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Old 02-07-2012, 07:52 AM
 
9,412 posts, read 11,792,114 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vansdad View Post
Do you have no words of your own?
I thought a simple cartoon might be more your style given the fact you don't read a word anyone says on this thread
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Old 02-07-2012, 07:55 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,314,957 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vansdad View Post
One would have to be a real fool to actually believe that monkeys can re-write anything
Why.
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Old 02-07-2012, 07:58 AM
 
6,822 posts, read 5,189,237 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vansdad View Post
With all the science there is still no 100% explanation of how everything came into existance. I only meant that I have this belief of how it did and I don't need to speculate. Science is approprate for what happens after it is already here. Each has its place.
Good job. Moderator cut: delete
Good example is Light. Is it a Particle or Wave? Depends? Quantum Physics demonstrates it loses locality. Does it have location? Even if we understand what Light does, we don't know what light is.

There are plenty of examples of just how science is not the end all. It's a great tool for observing things, but it's observing in the present. Observations of the present can only give one speculations of the past. So thus the two main world views 1) Creator 2) Evolution

The most simplest form is evidence for design. How does a Cycle evolve? We've certainly never observed that occur. Everything is interdependent. Irreducible complexity. While it's nice to believe that eventually systems could evolve, what we observe is that if all components in the machine aren't there and working, the machine doesn't work. So this is reduced to faith outside of science - illogical faith at that. It's believing something never before observed. It is logical to believe that the machine had an engineer. It is illogical to believe the machine created itself.
Moderator cut: rude

Last edited by Miss Blue; 02-07-2012 at 08:07 AM.. Reason: rude and inappropriate for this forum
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Old 02-07-2012, 08:19 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,314,957 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lee9786 View Post
There are plenty of examples of just how science is not the end all.
Nor are there many claiming it is. Even scientists as they accept that nothing in science is 100% proven, with the exception of areas of mathematics.

The issue is not with science being the "end all". The issue is with people focusing on the things science has not yet answered, and using those areas of ignorance as evidence for just about anything they want to make up.

Whether it is gods, alien abductions, the predictive power of astrology or the efficacy of homeopathy you get people simply saying "Well science does not know everything......" as if this in some way lends credence to any of the nonsense they just espoused.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lee9786 View Post
So thus the two main world views 1) Creator 2) Evolution
It would be an error to mistake them as being 2 equivalent claims, as if there is just a coin toss between them. It is not so. The former is a not just slightly, but entirely, unsubstantiated fantasy. The latter has a wealth of evidence behind it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lee9786 View Post
Everything is interdependent.
Not everything but let us leave that error aside for now and pretend that is it. This still does not negate anything. It would only suggest that everything is interdependent NOW.

By way of analogy consider an arch bridge made of blocks in one row of shape 'n'. Each block holds up the other. There is no way to build such a bridge merely by placing one block at a time. It would fall before the left of the n reached the right if you built them towards each other, or before one side got to the other if you started on just one side and built across.

So can it be done by playing just one block at a time? Yes. You simply build up a filled in 'n' shape, then when secure start removing the unneeded blocks again until left with a hollow 'n'.

Now you have reached a state where everything is 100% "interdependent" via a state with no such levels of dependencies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lee9786 View Post
While it's nice to believe that eventually systems could evolve, what we observe is that if all components in the machine aren't there and working, the machine doesn't work.
Not so. Nothing irreducibly complex has been found. People like Behe listed things but they turned out to be wrong. All of his examples turned out wrong because they all contained one fallacious assumption... that "work" in this case has to mean "does what it does NOW".

In other words the assumption is that if you find something X that performs function Y and removing even one part of X stops it doing Y then you have found irreduicible complexity.

The error is that when you remove parts of it it turns out that X performs other functions perfectly well and the idea of irreducible complexity falls apart entirely.

Behe tried this error/trick with cellular secretion systems while others tried it with blood clotting mechanisms. They were wrong every time.
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Old 02-07-2012, 09:19 AM
 
Location: NW NJ & SE Oahu
4,605 posts, read 5,437,014 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
Some of us don't need to believe in a god but others, like my children, do.
Some adult theists apparently need that particular type of perspective, as illustrated in this Dawson Bethrick blog.
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Old 02-07-2012, 01:48 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
1,530 posts, read 2,617,393 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vansdad View Post
Evolution does not explain the origins.
No, but abiogenesis theory does, and while it doesn't have the mountain of evidence supporting it like the theory of evolution, it does at least have some evidence suggesting it's a very plausible theory, unlike creationism.

Quote:
And to think the creator needs a creator and so on just shows our limited human thinking.
No, it shows your limited thinking. You're the one that suggested anything complex must have a creator. To think that anything complex - including life - must have a creator is limited thinking. There is a very good video about this posted by Djuna that you seemed to have no rebuttal for.

Quote:
And this thing about organic chemicals...do they spring up on their own? Of course not. There is some creation or intervention to get it started. More evidence that God exists and created us opposed to us just springing up on our own.
Umm... Yes they did spring up on their own. All scientists did was simulate an environment they believed to be similar to early Earth and these complex organic molecules just started appearing. It's not hard to fathom that if the entire planet was like this, some very simple form of life or protolife may have popped up.

Quote:
Do you even realize the vastness of our universe? We are smaller that a grain of sand on all the beaches on the entire earth. Just came from nowhere? Dream on. Now that is what I call magic.
That supports my side of the argument more than your own. I'm not sure of the numbers, but I believe there are millions of stars in each galaxy and billions of galaxies in the known universe. It is also now believed that there is at least one planet around most of those stars. Therefore, even if the chances of a planet being hospitable to life and life just springing up on it are one in a quadrillion, it's still extremely likely that life would spring up somewhere in the universe, just as it did on Earth.

On the other hand, if a god created the universe, why would he make so much wasted space? It doesn't make sense.
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