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Old 02-27-2012, 12:57 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
1,530 posts, read 2,617,393 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vansdad View Post
Scientist extimate the universe, the one we exist in is 13-15 billion years old. It started with the big bang. So very finite.
No. The big bang happened about that long ago. It's not necessarily when the universe began unless you want to consider what was in the same space before the big bang as another universe.
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Old 02-27-2012, 01:03 PM
 
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Atheists: Do you EVER have doubts?

The real question is:
Theists: Why do you not have doubts?

If I had invested my savings in a scheme that was as dubious and unproven as what theists believe, I would have constant indigestion and many sleepless nights. Not to mention being homeless an destitute.
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Old 02-29-2012, 07:24 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenshi View Post
No. The big bang happened about that long ago. It's not necessarily when the universe began unless you want to consider what was in the same space before the big bang as another universe.
So are you saying the physical universe had no begining? How is that possible?
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Old 02-29-2012, 07:26 AM
 
707 posts, read 576,326 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville Native View Post
Atheists: Do you EVER have doubts?

The real question is:
Theists: Why do you not have doubts?

If I had invested my savings in a scheme that was as dubious and unproven as what theists believe, I would have constant indigestion and many sleepless nights. Not to mention being homeless an destitute.
It all depends on what you call proof. Once you have proof within yourself that God exists then there are no doubts, at least for me. Let me ask you this: Do you believe in love...what proof do you have that IT exists?
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Old 02-29-2012, 07:31 AM
 
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The issue is not even as lofty as "proof". I for one never ask for "proof" of god. I ask for "any evidence, argument, data or reasons to lend even a modicum of credence to the idea there is a god" and the theists can not even give THAT. So asking them for "proof" would just be mean.

Further "Love" is a lot easier evidenced than you think. The hormonal and electrical precursors of it are well known and easily measured. We even now know more and more about which part of the brain deal with things like how important and relevant people, places and things are to us.... the physiological responses from pupil dilation all the way to galvanic skin responses associated with love.... and the behavioral changes such as dedicating the entirety of ones hopes, dreams, future and life to another.

All "love" is is the word we assign to our personal experience of those things. We have no way to even know that what you mean by "love" is what I mean by it. Perhaps we experience something entirely different and just call it the same thing. Much like we all have the word "blue" which describes two things. Objectively it describes light of a defined wavelength. Subjectively it describes what you experience when your eyes are subjected to that light, and you have no way to know that your experience or knowledge of "blue" matches mine.
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Old 02-29-2012, 12:15 PM
 
707 posts, read 576,326 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
The issue is not even as lofty as "proof". I for one never ask for "proof" of god. I ask for "any evidence, argument, data or reasons to lend even a modicum of credence to the idea there is a god" and the theists can not even give THAT. So asking them for "proof" would just be mean.

Further "Love" is a lot easier evidenced than you think. The hormonal and electrical precursors of it are well known and easily measured. We even now know more and more about which part of the brain deal with things like how important and relevant people, places and things are to us.... the physiological responses from pupil dilation all the way to galvanic skin responses associated with love.... and the behavioral changes such as dedicating the entirety of ones hopes, dreams, future and life to another.

All "love" is is the word we assign to our personal experience of those things. We have no way to even know that what you mean by "love" is what I mean by it. Perhaps we experience something entirely different and just call it the same thing. Much like we all have the word "blue" which describes two things. Objectively it describes light of a defined wavelength. Subjectively it describes what you experience when your eyes are subjected to that light, and you have no way to know that your experience or knowledge of "blue" matches mine.
As for proof vs. evidence they are both subjective. Proof refers to "court room" evidence which is tangible in a human way. Evidence is something that can "tip" the scale. There is alot of good evidence but often just refuted. Like love, it is a relationship that only those who've experienced it can share.
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Old 02-29-2012, 12:51 PM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,314,957 times
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No proof is not to do with courtrooms alone. "Proof" in science just means "to test". To prove in common speech means to "show true" while in science it just means to "test".

However I hear there is a "lot of good evidence" a lot in the context of god. However only from people who then do not actually give ANY of it. Ever. If I had a dollar for every person I have heard claim there is lots of evidence I would be rich. If I had another dollar for everyone who then left without offering a scrap of it... I would be exactly twice as rich.
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Old 02-29-2012, 01:35 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
1,530 posts, read 2,617,393 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vansdad View Post
So are you saying the physical universe had no begining? How is that possible?
I'm saying it possibly has no beginning. Why should it? To me, it actually seems simpler logically if it doesn't. If it has a beginning, you have the problem of what caused it to begin. Of course there are questions either way and scientists are trying to solve them.
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Old 02-29-2012, 02:07 PM
 
3,271 posts, read 2,655,076 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vansdad View Post
So are you saying the physical universe had no begining? How is that possible?
When matter is condensed at the density at which would necessitate the big bang, time functions in a different manner. It's technically incorrect to think of the beginning of the universe or multiverses as having a set fixed point relative to the present. It's been 13.75B years give or take a hundred million or so since the big bang according to the lambda-cdm model but that doesn't mean anything beyond that's the point at which we commonly accept to begin counting.
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Old 02-29-2012, 04:16 PM
 
Location: Florida
743 posts, read 1,397,444 times
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No.
I came from Christianity and find it very difficult to believe that there are still folks who think that there is some entity somewhere to "cares" about humans.
The bible is so obviously a fairy tale for adults. Yes, I read it.

We are energy; we can neither be created nor destroyed; our mind/energy will go on eternally creating one reality after another. Change is interesting; change is the natural order of the Universe. The prime directive of the Universe is to Create, and that is what we do.

What we are unable to understand is that the Universe is eternal. It always existed and will always exist.
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