U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Atheism and Agnosticism
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 03-13-2012, 12:43 PM
 
3,402 posts, read 2,327,020 times
Reputation: 1318

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vansdad View Post
Religion is not the same as believing in a Living Being who Created everything. And just because I have my evidence and you are unable to see it does not make it any less real or valid to me.
Sure, religions generally tack on a lot of other things like how one should live, or rituals, or punishment of unbelievers or such.

What you are describing appears to be the philosophical position called Deism. I hesitate to say it is a religion, because deist-god does not require worship, does not have a hierarchy or authority structure, does not demand you conform your behavior to a specific form, and does not judge the actions of man. Deist-god just kicked everything off, and went away, never to interfere again.

This is not an illogical stance to take, but by definition there is no way to determine the difference between a deist-god and a naturalistic explanation. It is simply a way to encapsulate what we don't know and label it God. I personally find it lacking because it has no additional explanatory power. Goddidit as an explanation doesn't give us any useful results. We cannot use it to develop new technology, we cannot get a more accurate picture of the history of the universe or our planet, we cannot develop new vaccines based on it, and we cannot make accurate predictions based on it. The naturalistic explanation can and has contributed all these things. It appears, if not more true, then certainly more useful.

As far as the evidence, this is my point about the difference between religious belief and science. Whatever evidence you have that convinces you of the existence of a god is obviously enough to meet your threshold for religious belief. Science has a much higher threshold for evidence. Theories must be falsifiable, evidence must be objectively measurable, and results must be repeatable. If one person or team produces results that cannot be independently verified and duplicated, they are supect and generally given little credence.

NoCapo
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-13-2012, 12:43 PM
Status: "It seems the Block has been taken off. Thank you" (set 8 days ago)
 
Location: S. Wales.
42,694 posts, read 12,181,122 times
Reputation: 5379
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vansdad View Post
Unfortunately the idea that if someone believes in God it is a specific one. Like one who created everything in 6 days ,etc. But there are some who feel God has put these things in place for evolution to happen as it did. So even when science says that we evolved from something it doesn not rule out that the very start came from a Creator. Just as we start out from a microscopic cell and we grow to the human being we are. That is Creation for you. We don't just come into existance as a full grow or developed human being.
No, it might be true and it might not be. Logically we should not believe either way until there is some evidence that the first stages of life came about through natural means. What the evidence would be for goddunnit I can't guess.

However, that isn't really a concern for me. The evidence we do have undermines the Bible account just as surely as histoical analysis undermines the Gospels.

Let me ask you, with just a belief that a 'Mind' created life and supposing that you accepted that fact had discredited the Bible, Bible- style gods and the religions of the Book, what would you be talking to us about?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-13-2012, 01:02 PM
 
707 posts, read 587,120 times
Reputation: 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
BTW, the history of science reveals that as better tools of observation and detection are invented by humans, more details about the natural world are discovered.

Tools are the key, and most of scientific progress is about fine tuning previous knowledge.
That is true. However my statement is also true. We do not know everything. There are still countless discoveries out in the universe.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-13-2012, 01:04 PM
 
707 posts, read 587,120 times
Reputation: 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
No, it might be true and it might not be. Logically we should not believe either way until there is some evidence that the first stages of life came about through natural means. What the evidence would be for goddunnit I can't guess.

However, that isn't really a concern for me. The evidence we do have undermines the Bible account just as surely as histoical analysis undermines the Gospels.

Let me ask you, with just a belief that a 'Mind' created life and supposing that you accepted that fact had discredited the Bible, Bible- style gods and the religions of the Book, what would you be talking to us about?
Probably because I am not talking about this so called biblical God anyway.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-13-2012, 01:08 PM
 
707 posts, read 587,120 times
Reputation: 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
Sure, religions generally tack on a lot of other things like how one should live, or rituals, or punishment of unbelievers or such.

What you are describing appears to be the philosophical position called Deism. I hesitate to say it is a religion, because deist-god does not require worship, does not have a hierarchy or authority structure, does not demand you conform your behavior to a specific form, and does not judge the actions of man. Deist-god just kicked everything off, and went away, never to interfere again.

This is not an illogical stance to take, but by definition there is no way to determine the difference between a deist-god and a naturalistic explanation. It is simply a way to encapsulate what we don't know and label it God. I personally find it lacking because it has no additional explanatory power. Goddidit as an explanation doesn't give us any useful results. We cannot use it to develop new technology, we cannot get a more accurate picture of the history of the universe or our planet, we cannot develop new vaccines based on it, and we cannot make accurate predictions based on it. The naturalistic explanation can and has contributed all these things. It appears, if not more true, then certainly more useful.

As far as the evidence, this is my point about the difference between religious belief and science. Whatever evidence you have that convinces you of the existence of a god is obviously enough to meet your threshold for religious belief. Science has a much higher threshold for evidence. Theories must be falsifiable, evidence must be objectively measurable, and results must be repeatable. If one person or team produces results that cannot be independently verified and duplicated, they are supect and generally given little credence.

NoCapo
I guess it is far easier to be right and avoid another person's point of view if you tell them what it is.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-13-2012, 01:11 PM
 
707 posts, read 587,120 times
Reputation: 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville Native View Post
A thousand years ago, when much was not known, superstition would very likely have seemed more acceptable. But much has been learned since then, perhaps you should try and catch up with what we know today.
Oh please. If you think that the human race and "scientists" have discovered everything there is to know then maybe you need to give your head a shake because that takes a lot more faith than believing in God as far as I am concerned.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-13-2012, 01:20 PM
 
3,402 posts, read 2,327,020 times
Reputation: 1318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vansdad View Post
I guess it is far easier to be right and avoid another person's point of view if you tell them what it is.
Wouldn't have to if you felt like sharing...

So far you have stated you are not talking about bible-god (and I am assuming you are also ruling out torah-god, and koran-god)

You have also stated that you are talking about a "Living Being who Created everything" (LBWCE)

Based on that I have assumed that you follow no particular tradition with regard to a deity, but believe in a First Cause. That kind of leaves us with deist-god or some personal conception of god that you have come up with. Obviously without you defining something you made up, I can only discuss the former.

I was discussing this in relatively general terms, since that is all I have to work with.If you want to discuss precisely what you believe, you will have to define it first.

NoCapo
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-13-2012, 01:46 PM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
18,386 posts, read 20,442,799 times
Reputation: 14379
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vansdad View Post
Oh please. If you think that the human race and "scientists" have discovered everything there is to know then maybe you need to give your head a shake because that takes a lot more faith than believing in God as far as I am concerned.
The thing is that scientific discoveries over the last 200 years or so have tended to increasingly cast doubt on the existence of God:

- The evolution of life shows that God isn't necessary to create humans and animals.

- Abiogenesis shows that God isn't necessary to create life.

- Stellar evolution shows that God isn't necessary to create the sun, moon, heavens and earth.

- The big bang shows that God isn't necessary to create anything in the universe.

So, as you see, God has been pretty much displaced from existence as we know it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-13-2012, 02:01 PM
Status: "It seems the Block has been taken off. Thank you" (set 8 days ago)
 
Location: S. Wales.
42,694 posts, read 12,181,122 times
Reputation: 5379
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vansdad View Post
Probably because I am not talking about this so called biblical God anyway.
Then let me ask why is it so important to you to persuade us that Goddunnit creation is so important a matter? Why can't you just accept that nobody really knows and that we prefer the logical position of not believing in what we don't know?

Let me further suggest that, if you don't (it appears) believe in Biblegod any more than we do, you are taking such issue with atheism? It looks to me as though we are actually on the same page but for some reason you have the idea that we aren't. So did I but you can't blame me for supposing that you believed in Biblegod.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-15-2012, 01:47 PM
 
707 posts, read 587,120 times
Reputation: 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
Wouldn't have to if you felt like sharing...

So far you have stated you are not talking about bible-god (and I am assuming you are also ruling out torah-god, and koran-god)

You have also stated that you are talking about a "Living Being who Created everything" (LBWCE)

Based on that I have assumed that you follow no particular tradition with regard to a deity, but believe in a First Cause. That kind of leaves us with deist-god or some personal conception of god that you have come up with. Obviously without you defining something you made up, I can only discuss the former.

I was discussing this in relatively general terms, since that is all I have to work with.If you want to discuss precisely what you believe, you will have to define it first.

NoCapo
Just as we are human beings I believe God to be a living but much superior being. I think that is very specific. Lets discuss.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Atheism and Agnosticism
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2020, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top