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Old 03-15-2012, 01:51 PM
 
707 posts, read 587,120 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
The thing is that scientific discoveries over the last 200 years or so have tended to increasingly cast doubt on the existence of God:

- The evolution of life shows that God isn't necessary to create humans and animals.

- Abiogenesis shows that God isn't necessary to create life.

- Stellar evolution shows that God isn't necessary to create the sun, moon, heavens and earth.

- The big bang shows that God isn't necessary to create anything in the universe.

So, as you see, God has been pretty much displaced from existence as we know it.
"Abiogenesis shows that God isn't necessary to create life."

Please explain. Does this life just happen without any interference. From absolutely nothing comes life? As you believe not necessary but your believe takes so much faith. A lot of what you state is evolution but not creation. Big bang is a theory and no one can say with 100% accuracy how it all came from nothing. They can theorize but they have no more proof than I do that God exists. It all comes down to a person's belief.
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Old 03-15-2012, 01:56 PM
 
707 posts, read 587,120 times
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Then let me ask why is it so important to you to persuade us that Goddunnit creation is so important a matter? Why can't you just accept that nobody really knows and that we prefer the logical position of not believing in what we don't know?

Let me further suggest that, if you don't (it appears) believe in Biblegod any more than we do, you are taking such issue with atheism? It looks to me as though we are actually on the same page but for some reason you have the idea that we aren't. So did I but you can't blame me for supposing that you believed in Biblegod.

It is a general idea that a person who believes in a Creator (God) also is religious and believes in the bible God and Jesus etc. I'm just saying that is not always the case. And I am sorry that you feel I'm trying to pursuade you or your beliefs. I am merely sharing mine and also my personal beliefs in how the idea of logic and proof are actually not very good indicators of God's existance or non-existance. Plus logic is subjective. To me from a science and physics point of view I think it is actually more logical to believe in God (Creator). It's a vast and complex universe so expansive we will never know.
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Old 03-15-2012, 02:30 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
1,530 posts, read 2,661,317 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vansdad View Post
"Abiogenesis shows that God isn't necessary to create life."

Please explain. Does this life just happen without any interference. From absolutely nothing comes life?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenshi View Post
By replicating what are believed to be the initial conditions of Earth, scientists observed complex biochemicals forming. Remember that this was happening across most or all of the planet for billions of years. The first life or predecessor to life only had to be a chemical that was capable of replicating and mutating, a primitive form of RNA. It didn't have to be (and probably wasn't) anything like even the simplest life today. That evolved later.
As I mentioned before, it appears that life likely spontaneously came about from the initial conditions of the planet. There's no faith necessary.
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Old 03-15-2012, 03:42 PM
 
16,479 posts, read 18,538,558 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vansdad View Post
"Abiogenesis shows that God isn't necessary to create life."

Please explain. Does this life just happen without any interference. From absolutely nothing comes life? As you believe not necessary but your believe takes so much faith. A lot of what you state is evolution but not creation. Big bang is a theory and no one can say with 100% accuracy how it all came from nothing. They can theorize but they have no more proof than I do that God exists. It all comes down to a person's belief.
NASA - "Lost" Miller Experiment Gives Pungent Clue to Origin of Life

Quote:
The origin of life may have been smelly, according to a recent, NASA-funded analysis of residue from a variant of classic experiments performed by Dr. Stanley Miller in the 1950s.
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Old 03-15-2012, 04:13 PM
 
Location: NW NJ & SE Oahu
4,659 posts, read 5,554,523 times
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"The origin of life may have been smelly, according to a recent, NASA-funded analysis of residue from a variant of classic experiments performed by Dr. Stanley Miller in the 1950s."

I guess it's not totally impossible that some super-natural being was eating the wrong kinds of food the night before.

Last edited by Tantalust; 03-15-2012 at 04:21 PM..
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Old 03-16-2012, 01:57 AM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tantalust View Post
I guess it's not totally impossible that some super-natural being was eating the wrong kinds of food the night before.

Ren & Stimpy - Stimpy's Fart and the Birth of Stinky - YouTube
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Old 03-16-2012, 05:25 AM
Status: "It seems the Block has been taken off. Thank you" (set 8 days ago)
 
Location: S. Wales.
42,694 posts, read 12,181,122 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vansdad View Post
It is a general idea that a person who believes in a Creator (God) also is religious and believes in the bible God and Jesus etc. I'm just saying that is not always the case. And I am sorry that you feel I'm trying to pursuade you or your beliefs. I am merely sharing mine and also my personal beliefs in how the idea of logic and proof are actually not very good indicators of God's existance or non-existance. Plus logic is subjective. To me from a science and physics point of view I think it is actually more logical to believe in God (Creator). It's a vast and complex universe so expansive we will never know.
I take the view that anyone who rolls up (especially on A/A) and debates with us is making a case. It therefore apparently matters to that person.

I had a couple of attempts at this next bit, and I got to where, if your issue is with human logic and the way it seems to reject the case for intelligent creation (not, note, intelligent Design, which like evolution, strictly relates to the development of life) what I'd argue is that 'we will never know' is an agnostic position rather a believing position.

Now, it looks like you find the case for a planned cosmic creation so compelling that you think a 'cosmic mind' (aka 'God') is more likely than 'something from nothing'.

While I give a lot more weight to the sheer ignorance of humans and their logic (re. Cosmic origins) than you do to what seems a common sense assumption that 'someone' must have done it, your tendency must be towards Deism (if you don't buy any of the religious claims) and deism is something I can live with very well. That's why I say we are on the same page.

If we agreed to differ on the case for a creative mind NOT linked in the Leap of Faith to a Bible - creed or one of the other religions, where do you and I stand on organised religion?

I don't like it being taught as fact rather than myth, but many people are used to it. Even think it is necessary. To relate to the context, I have had doubts about First cause, Mystics cosmic mind claim, actual miracles, NED's, OOB experiences and validation of the Bible, but none of them really stood up that well to scrutiny, especially the Bible and I now have doubts only in a relative or academic sense. I still wabble between the Arimathea and Nicodemus thing being based on a real event or is just made up out of nothing. But I have no doubts that the bodily resurrection didn't happen.

Similarly the Exodus might be based on a real event, though I must say that study seems to be showing that it is highly unlikely to be historically factual. In rather the same way as Cosmic Mind, we may never know, but study seems to tilt more towards the other theory, which I take as the default anyway.

Thing is, if we are going to reason, let's use the tied and tested mental tools of logic and evidence rather than the very unreliable method of 'common sense' and the even worse mental method of 'Faith'. Whether you see that agnostic atheism is the more reasonable position or not, perhaps discussion would show that our case is a quite reasonable one, and leaves room for some doubt, but nothing like enough to make a case for a sortagod, let alone Biblegod.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 03-16-2012 at 05:40 AM..
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Old 03-16-2012, 02:43 PM
 
707 posts, read 587,120 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenshi View Post
As I mentioned before, it appears that life likely spontaneously came about from the initial conditions of the planet. There's no faith necessary.
I think you are fogetting about one thing. Where did the earth, the universe, and all matter come from. That is what we are talking about.
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Old 03-16-2012, 02:51 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
1,530 posts, read 2,661,317 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vansdad View Post
I think you are fogetting about one thing. Where did the earth, the universe, and all matter come from. That is what we are talking about.
We don't know and don't really have enough information to make much of a guess. It would be like asking someone 2,000 years ago what causes lightning. They have no understanding about electrons or voltages and would have no chance of getting it right.
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Old 03-16-2012, 02:55 PM
 
707 posts, read 587,120 times
Reputation: 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
I take the view that anyone who rolls up (especially on A/A) and debates with us is making a case. It therefore apparently matters to that person.

I had a couple of attempts at this next bit, and I got to where, if your issue is with human logic and the way it seems to reject the case for intelligent creation (not, note, intelligent Design, which like evolution, strictly relates to the development of life) what I'd argue is that 'we will never know' is an agnostic position rather a believing position.

Now, it looks like you find the case for a planned cosmic creation so compelling that you think a 'cosmic mind' (aka 'God') is more likely than 'something from nothing'.

While I give a lot more weight to the sheer ignorance of humans and their logic (re. Cosmic origins) than you do to what seems a common sense assumption that 'someone' must have done it, your tendency must be towards Deism (if you don't buy any of the religious claims) and deism is something I can live with very well. That's why I say we are on the same page.

If we agreed to differ on the case for a creative mind NOT linked in the Leap of Faith to a Bible - creed or one of the other religions, where do you and I stand on organised religion?

I don't like it being taught as fact rather than myth, but many people are used to it. Even think it is necessary. To relate to the context, I have had doubts about First cause, Mystics cosmic mind claim, actual miracles, NED's, OOB experiences and validation of the Bible, but none of them really stood up that well to scrutiny, especially the Bible and I now have doubts only in a relative or academic sense. I still wabble between the Arimathea and Nicodemus thing being based on a real event or is just made up out of nothing. But I have no doubts that the bodily resurrection didn't happen.

Similarly the Exodus might be based on a real event, though I must say that study seems to be showing that it is highly unlikely to be historically factual. In rather the same way as Cosmic Mind, we may never know, but study seems to tilt more towards the other theory, which I take as the default anyway.

Thing is, if we are going to reason, let's use the tied and tested mental tools of logic and evidence rather than the very unreliable method of 'common sense' and the even worse mental method of 'Faith'. Whether you see that agnostic atheism is the more reasonable position or not, perhaps discussion would show that our case is a quite reasonable one, and leaves room for some doubt, but nothing like enough to make a case for a sortagod, let alone Biblegod.

You know even the bible can be interpretted in many ways. To take it letterally is often missing the point of the story. Take Adam and Eve for example. Maybe they represent the first people who "believed" in God and not the actual first people on earth. I've tried to show how logic has two sides in this debate as well so to say God does not exist out of logical thinking is also debatable, as is the whole issue. Faith has two sides because theories are not 100% and in time change. We make our decisions with the best available information we have at a given time. For some that does include a Creator and for some it doesn't.
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