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Old 03-16-2012, 02:01 PM
 
707 posts, read 573,406 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenshi View Post
We don't know and don't really have enough information to make much of a guess. It would be like asking someone 2,000 years ago what causes lightning. They have no understanding about electrons or voltages and would have no chance of getting it right.
So it seems we have to rely on faith as to where it all came from. Either faith in man (scientists) or God.
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Old 03-16-2012, 02:13 PM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
17,305 posts, read 19,577,939 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vansdad View Post
I think you are fogetting about one thing. Where did the earth, the universe, and all matter come from. That is what we are talking about.
These are three separate questions:

Where did the earth come from? The earth was formed along with the formation of our solar system more than 4.5 billion years ago. An enormous molecular cloud, called a nebula, collapsed under its own gravitation to form the sun, planets, moons and most other objects in our solar system. This is how nearly all stellar systems in our universe are formed.

Where did the universe come from? The universe began with the big bang 13.7 billion years ago when it was an extremely hot and dense state that expanded rapidly.

Where did all matter come from? Possibly from a quantum fluctuation or from two universes colliding or one universe splitting apart. It is speculative at this point and a work in progress, like all cutting-edge science is.

BTW, the first two answers are based on well-tested empirical evidence.
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Old 03-16-2012, 02:17 PM
 
Location: NW NJ & SE Oahu
4,565 posts, read 5,407,974 times
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Vansdad wrote: "So it seems "I" have to rely on faith as to where it all came from. Either faith in man (scientists) or God. "


I fixed your post for you.
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Old 03-16-2012, 02:20 PM
 
707 posts, read 573,406 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tantalust View Post
Vansdad wrote: "So it seems "I" have to rely on faith as to where it all came from. Either faith in man (scientists) or God. "


I fixed your post for you.
Freudian slip?
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Old 03-16-2012, 02:21 PM
 
707 posts, read 573,406 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
These are three separate questions:

Where did the earth come from? The earth was formed along with the formation of our solar system more than 4.5 billion years ago. An enormous molecular cloud, called a nebula, collapsed under its own gravitation to form the sun, planets, moons and most other objects in our solar system. This is how nearly all stellar systems in our universe are formed.

Where did the universe come from? The universe began with the big bang 13.7 billion years ago when it was an extremely hot and dense state that expanded rapidly.

Where did all matter come from? Possibly from a quantum fluctuation or from two universes colliding or one universe splitting apart. It is speculative at this point and a work in progress, like all cutting-edge science is.

BTW, the first two answers are based on well-tested empirical evidence.
I like to get to the heart of the matter. Where it all began. After that it is immaterial to me.
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Old 03-16-2012, 02:23 PM
 
39,207 posts, read 10,887,543 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vansdad View Post
You know even the bible can be interpretted in many ways. To take it letterally is often missing the point of the story. Take Adam and Eve for example. Maybe they represent the first people who "believed" in God and not the actual first people on earth. I've tried to show how logic has two sides in this debate as well so to say God does not exist out of logical thinking is also debatable, as is the whole issue. Faith has two sides because theories are not 100% and in time change. We make our decisions with the best available information we have at a given time. For some that does include a Creator and for some it doesn't.
As soon as we interpret the Bible to extent that we cannot sign up to what it says as fact, then whatever it might represent is neither here nor there as regards believing its contents as fact.

As theists say, either believe or don't. If it can't be trusted without serious question, it has no part in the 'who made everything then?' debate, and anyone who uses it as some particular kind of guide or mentor is being irrational. Since you say you don't particularly espouse it or its associated religions, then presumably rationality is all you got, since what is there to have 'Faith' in?

If you are going to be obliged to use rationality then you have surely got to understand what is a reliable and trustworthy way to use it or one is merely wabbling about on impulse and emotion without even the spurious anchor of a religion.

How do you see it? How do you operate in life?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vansdad View Post
So it seems we have to rely on faith as to where it all came from. Either faith in man (scientists) or God.
What we have to rely on is what has sound evidential support and there is a lot of that about. Much of what we don't know and has to remain speculation (not 'Faith' please as that is irrationally taking as fact what one doesn't know) is of course untestable and that means behond human reach even with the Hubble telescope and can remain of academic interest. Other things that science cannot help with (as yet anyway) are the areas that religion and philosophy deal with.

Philosophy is a better bet than religion since philosophy deals logically (if rather speculatively) with these imponderables whereas religion claims to have all the answers through Faith. Since you say that don't have any truck with the Holy Books or religion, I suggest that you have only reason to use and logical reason is easily shown to be a better bet than illogical reasoning.

About these conclusion I have little or no doubt and the logical outcome has to be disbelief in the claims of religion and agnosticism about cosmic origins. That is all that agnostic- based atheism needs. I understand that you find the First cause arguments persuasive though I actually think them not logical (had a long discussion with poster Boxcar on the validity of the materialist default) but I really can be tolerant about that.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 03-16-2012 at 02:41 PM..
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Old 03-16-2012, 02:54 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
1,530 posts, read 2,606,909 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vansdad View Post
So it seems we have to rely on faith as to where it all came from. Either faith in man (scientists) or God.
No, we don't. The only thing we have to do is admit we don't know. Faith is basically deciding something is true when you don't have proof that it is, and that's just foolish. Why does the universe exist? I don't know, simple as that.
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Old 03-16-2012, 03:06 PM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
17,305 posts, read 19,577,939 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vansdad View Post
I like to get to the heart of the matter. Where it all began. After that it is immaterial to me.
Humans have not yet found a scientific answer to the question of where all existence came from, but it's being worked on. I personally think we are close to getting an answer. There are very likely going to be Nobel prizes awarded to those who find it.

What is amazing is just how much has been discovered about things which were once thought to be impossible to find the answers to. That's what scientific understanding is all about.

Last edited by BigCityDreamer; 03-16-2012 at 03:17 PM..
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Old 03-17-2012, 11:10 PM
 
707 posts, read 573,406 times
Reputation: 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
As soon as we interpret the Bible to extent that we cannot sign up to what it says as fact, then whatever it might represent is neither here nor there as regards believing its contents as fact.

As theists say, either believe or don't. If it can't be trusted without serious question, it has no part in the 'who made everything then?' debate, and anyone who uses it as some particular kind of guide or mentor is being irrational. Since you say you don't particularly espouse it or its associated religions, then presumably rationality is all you got, since what is there to have 'Faith' in?

If you are going to be obliged to use rationality then you have surely got to understand what is a reliable and trustworthy way to use it or one is merely wabbling about on impulse and emotion without even the spurious anchor of a religion.

How do you see it? How do you operate in life?



What we have to rely on is what has sound evidential support and there is a lot of that about. Much of what we don't know and has to remain speculation (not 'Faith' please as that is irrationally taking as fact what one doesn't know) is of course untestable and that means behond human reach even with the Hubble telescope and can remain of academic interest. Other things that science cannot help with (as yet anyway) are the areas that religion and philosophy deal with.

Philosophy is a better bet than religion since philosophy deals logically (if rather speculatively) with these imponderables whereas religion claims to have all the answers through Faith. Since you say that don't have any truck with the Holy Books or religion, I suggest that you have only reason to use and logical reason is easily shown to be a better bet than illogical reasoning.

About these conclusion I have little or no doubt and the logical outcome has to be disbelief in the claims of religion and agnosticism about cosmic origins. That is all that agnostic- based atheism needs. I understand that you find the First cause arguments persuasive though I actually think them not logical (had a long discussion with poster Boxcar on the validity of the materialist default) but I really can be tolerant about that.
Even the most sound scientific theories still have pieces missing and rely on faith. The big bang cannot say where it came from and leaves everyone on a limb. At that point I see that God created it and science explains it. To me they work nicely together. I do not need the philosophies to fill it in for me. I can think for myself and fill in some of the blanks. Life works very well for me that way.
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Old 03-17-2012, 11:13 PM
 
707 posts, read 573,406 times
Reputation: 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
Humans have not yet found a scientific answer to the question of where all existence came from, but it's being worked on. I personally think we are close to getting an answer. There are very likely going to be Nobel prizes awarded to those who find it.

What is amazing is just how much has been discovered about things which were once thought to be impossible to find the answers to. That's what scientific understanding is all about.
Yes science and technology has come a long way, but I would not be holding my breath on the Nobel prize.
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