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Old 04-19-2012, 05:49 AM
 
Location: Queensland, Australia
48 posts, read 37,194 times
Reputation: 22

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
What - you mean that we keep changing our perception of reality? That's true enough, but Reality itself is reliable enough and all that changes is what we learn about it. Really, ever since the Geocentric system was replaced by a solarcentric system, the work or Newton, Einstein and Hawkins is all still valid and workable, though we are finding out new and often unsettling facts about what we always thought of as 'reality' until some scientists have trouble saying what reality is.

It is because reality is predictable reliable that we can accommodate Quantum mechanics, divergency principle, matter being as near nothingness as makes no difference and the possibility that our whole universe is just a 2d holographic projection.

Whatever it is, it works, reliably and predictable, and to try to to use string theory and dark matter or particles that appear to exceed the speed of light as some way of hinting that science might be wrong about everything (whether or not that was what you had in mind ) is just another theist trick to try to get rid - in one wonderful flood of denial - of all that pesky evidence that God is not actually necessary and probably doesn't even exist.
I'm pretty happy with Science, its always served me well. Nothing that I've ever built has fallen over, even when I had to set the foundations in sand.

The question of whether or not God is necessary had actually never crossed my mind, I'll think about that, my quick response would have been no. Thanks.

As to whether God exists at all, I don't have the evidence - yet, or the lotto numbers
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Old 04-19-2012, 08:09 AM
 
Location: Hyrule
8,398 posts, read 9,900,280 times
Reputation: 7441
Having doubt and wishing it were true are different concepts of thought.
Do I ever doubt God doesn't exist? No
Do I ever wish a spirit existed that would grant wishes, know whats best for me, and give me eternal life and an occasional singing career or football win?
Sometimes.
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Old 04-19-2012, 10:38 AM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
17,307 posts, read 19,585,657 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasaga View Post
The question of whether or not God is necessary had actually never crossed my mind, I'll think about that, my quick response would have been no. Thanks.
Based on your response, you're probably already atheist.

If God has no explanatory power in the universe, then Occam's razor suggests that God does not exist.
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Old 04-19-2012, 10:49 AM
 
Location: the dirty south
467 posts, read 1,041,215 times
Reputation: 361
Nope. Never.
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:56 PM
 
39,217 posts, read 10,895,806 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasaga View Post
I'm pretty happy with Science, its always served me well. Nothing that I've ever built has fallen over, even when I had to set the foundations in sand.

The question of whether or not God is necessary had actually never crossed my mind, I'll think about that, my quick response would have been no. Thanks.

As to whether God exists at all, I don't have the evidence - yet, or the lotto numbers
That response looks good to me. I think by necessary, 'necessary to explain where everything came from' is what is meant, though it may be more philosophical like the odd suggestion (always looked odd to me) that because we can imagine a god, it must exist. Which is great, because that fantastic possible afterlife I imagined for myself must logically then also exist too.
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Old 04-19-2012, 04:41 PM
 
Location: West Egg
2,161 posts, read 1,665,743 times
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Well, just today I doubted that I'll ever have any doubts ...
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Old 04-19-2012, 08:49 PM
 
Location: Queensland, Australia
48 posts, read 37,194 times
Reputation: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
That response looks good to me. I think by necessary, 'necessary to explain where everything came from' is what is meant, though it may be more philosophical like the odd suggestion (always looked odd to me) that because we can imagine a god, it must exist. Which is great, because that fantastic possible afterlife I imagined for myself must logically then also exist too.
I have concluded to my satisfaction that the concept of GOD IS necessary because
1) It satisfies the needs of a large number of people who need it,
2) distracts a greater number of people from the reality of what is, just is, and
3) the rest of us just get on with Life with less interuptions from the others.

Now if 3) above is all that God wanted in the first place............damn...
I'll think about that some more
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Old 04-19-2012, 10:11 PM
 
Location: Hyrule
8,398 posts, read 9,900,280 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasaga View Post
Showing a remarkable response to medication isn't surprising - it puts the patient into a different state of reality, but which reality, medicated or unmedicated, is the greater delusion.

I totaly agree with your reference in the power of the mind to create something that isn't there - so where is the research and evidence to prove the boundaries of what the mind is capable of. This field also requires much more study.

The fact that a Hypnotist can get seemingly reasonable and intelligent people to dance around a stage and act like a chicken would suggest that some minds are far stronger than others, and the fact that these things work through the power of suggestion doesn't negate the fact that it's all part of the mind.
You are implying that that people who can be hypnotised are not reasonable or intelligent. I don't agree.

So again I state that we can't write everything off as being delusional - is the chicken dancer delusional in thinking they are a chicken or is the Hypnotist delusional in believing he can make people bend to his will, or is it both, or is it the spectator that's delusional and it never happened, reality is based on the perspective and experience of the individual who's reality it is.
No, we cannot, I agree. Delusional thinking is clear to the one having it and who says that group delusion isn't actually reality as they know it, because in a fact it is. I, as the only sane one in a group of insane would be the crazy one in said reality. lol

This is and always will be an endless debate and why? Because you can't prove Santa isn't real. You can't prove anything that isn't here to prove. So I digress, as usual when exhaustion sets in. It's like aliens and ghosts, they live despite proof because the thought of them is reality.

Why the delusional group cares if I don't partake in the delusion is the real issue to me. I can't help wonder what delusional groups are capable of as a whole where I'm concerned? Can I mind my own business, or is it their business to convince me of the delusion?

Thankfully this is a free country. It is flavored with Christianity and I don't mind putting up with the flavoring but I do question why I have to sometimes. Wouldn't you?

In reflection of the post though, sometimes I would love to have something that was proven true by anything good that happened and anything bad that happened proved it's evil opposition. I could just relax, grab a nice cold one and forget ahhbout it. Sweet!
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Old 05-21-2012, 01:34 AM
 
134 posts, read 123,903 times
Reputation: 62
Do I ever doubt my atheism? Can't say I have. It just seems like the clear, logical view to me. Though I do have doubts of the validity of some arguments I use. I have also examined my atheism numerous times to see if there are flaws in my thinking. There have been times where I saw flaws in my thinking, but not atheism itself. I do plan to give The Bible a thorough read, though this isn't because I doubt my atheism rather a curiosity to biblical claims. I highly doubt when I do take time to read it I'll come out a Christian, because as hard as I may try I don't think I'll be able to read it with unbiased eyes. Also, a side note I saw above someone saying that Occam's Razor proves God does not exist. (I swear I read 'proves' )I Occam's Razor proves nothing. Even if something is beyond what is the most simple answer possible (I realize inference to the simplest answer possible is not exactly what it says.), that does not necessarily make the more complex answer wrong.Occam's Razor is more like a rule of thumb.

Last edited by Rj7237; 05-21-2012 at 01:58 AM..
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Old 05-21-2012, 01:00 PM
 
2,415 posts, read 2,431,053 times
Reputation: 2854
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theophane
I don't think you will ever have any. Your dogmatic atheism won't let you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by orogenicman View Post
And that's a bad thing, because?

Theophane
is just trying to get a rise out of people here . . . for unless Theophone just plain lacks in reading comprehension and is dim-witted (which I do not think or assert that he or she really is), no one can read what Hueffenhardt laid out in lucid and nuanced details (as to his or her logic and reasoning for why he or she leans toward the views he or she has) and label that person as "dogmatic". So either Theophane is of low intellectual capacity and ability (which I do not believe or assert) or else Theophane is simply here to stir up passions and emotions (to "get a rise" out of people). The very fact that he or she would label Hueffenhardt as "dogmatic" (with all the expanse of detail and nuance that Hueffenhardt laid out for all of us as to his or her reasoning) shows that Theophane is the one who is dogmatic (in the truest sense of the word).

Tell me (or tell all of us, for that matter), Theophane, what part of these statements by Hueffenhardt do you not comprehend?: <== EMPHASES ADDED TO THE TEXT BELOW BY MYSELF
(1) ". . . I do not believe we can either prove or disprove the existence of god."

(2) " My atheism came about through intense study of both apologetic and critical information mainly about the Bible, Christianity, and Judaism, but then about god in general as a Creator or beneficent power, and near-death-experiences, and the psychology of religion, etc."

(3) "I do not make the claim that there is no god, because such a thing cannot be known for certain."

(4) "No, this doesn't mean that I am close minded. I constantly seek out and read things that are critical of my current beliefs and that offer different perspectives and alternatives, because if I am wrong, the only way I'll ever find out is by reading materials that can show me I'm wrong. So, I am open to the possibility I could be wrong, but I have no doubts at the present time.


Do these sound like the ramblings of a "dogmatic" person? Of course not, and you know this as well. If you truly do not know it, then either you are blinded by your own dogmatism (the more likely reason) or are of lower intellectual capacity and, as a result, lack in good reading comprehension (which I do not believe or assert). My intuition tells me that you are just being disingenuous here or simply trying to stir up people and "get a rise". Congratulations, Theophane, you got a rise out of me! Success! Pat yourself on the back!

Last edited by UsAll; 05-21-2012 at 02:18 PM..
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