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I was about to embark on my own explanation which would, no doubt, have elicited some groans. Then, I found this one by brother Hueffenhardt:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hueffenhardt
I am a nontheist in that I do not have a belief in god. I am an epistemological agnostic in that I do not believe we can either prove or disprove the existence of god. I am an atheist in that I estimate the probability of the existence of any type of god existing as extremely low. I am atheist not only because I believe that there is no convincing evidence of god's existence, but because I believe there is evidence that discredits many of the things typically cited as evidence for god's existence, such as the Bible, Quran, fulfilled prophecies, answered prayers, spiritual promptings, near-death experiences, visions, etc.
My atheism came about through intense study of both apologetic and critical information mainly about the Bible, Christianity, and Judaism, but then about god in general as a Creator or beneficent power, and near-death-experiences, and the psychology of religion, etc. And that is why I think my atheism sticks. I don't second guess myself because I can point at the exact evidence and arguments that convince me that the probability of a god existing is extremely low, and the probability of specific gods existing such as the Jewish god is even lower than that.
I do not make the claim that there is no god, because such a thing cannot be known for certain. But, I do believe that the probability of the existence of any type of god (including a cosmic mind god, or creator god) is extremely low. Why? I studied both physics and psychology in college, and I see no indication that there might have been a creator and nothing that suggests to me there is some cosmic mind. The evidence to me suggests that this whole concept of god is a figment of man's imagination and in all likelihood has no real "world" correlate.
No, this doesn't mean that I am close minded. I constantly seek out and read things that are critical of my current beliefs and that offer different perspectives and alternatives, because if I am wrong, the only way I'll ever find out is by reading materials that can show me I'm wrong. So, I am open to the possibility I could be wrong, but I have no doubts at the present time.
What you said, brother! right on. And so forth. And to a "T, almost. I'll simply add that one can and does eventually go with the overwhelming majority of clear and relentless evidence, the stuff that ABSOLUTELY proves, beyond any rational objection, the non-existence of at least the Christian version of things. All that supernatural "water into wine", Noah's Ark and 6 day Insta-Poofy Creation, with "co-existing dinosaurs!!!" stuff, is just so hilariously but pathologically illogical that I had no other rational choice, as a once-active and faithful Christian kid, to hop offa that doomed out of control train-wreck about to happen.
So we make our well-based decisions, right? Unlike so many dogmatic Christians, who won't change their mind no matter what they know to be fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theophane
I don't think you will ever have any. Your dogmatic atheism won't let you.
"Dogmatic atheism", huh? And yet, many here have pointed out to you that we became atheists after (as in my case...) literally decades of somewhat hesitant and reluctant review of our previously chosen Christian religious mindsets. But my mind, apparently unlike yours (perhaps you're very young and unable to admit if any doubts ever arise in your rock-solid mind. About literally anything? Ever? Hmmm. Talk about set in stone thinking, huh guys?), is more than capable of accepting new information, and therefore I can potentially come to new conclusions. If God appears in front of me *POOF* (since, after all, He professes to LuvMe deeply and unconditionally...), and cures my raging arthritis, I'll probably and rationally become a believer. After all, evidence is evidence, eh? But absent that, which btw, will IMHO never happen (else He would have helped out at least a few of those amputees...), I'll hold to my dogged position. But it's hardly some "just arrived at hastily or absent any reflection" position. Unlike you.
You remember when the Christian majority, having been "instructed' by it's ever-present handlers, to believe, ABSOLUTELY, in a flat earth, one that was also the center of the universe, would kill off any objectors? You remember that? Well, that perspective is apparently still alive: you are a prime example. You do not have the atheists' proven ability to review information for content or credibility.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Century25
Never - not down to my last orbiting electron. The cults, aka: 'religions'.. they all are death-oriented. They hustle the very youngest, via by rote 'training' (brainwashing), and that is why modern humanity is still shackled to the dark ages. Such a sad.. actually, criminal, state of affairs.
Atheists, on the other hand, are big on life & living..
You got that right, Century! We atheists have come to the conclusion that, nope, we won't be going to some impossibly glorious heaven concept (by whose definition? How old will each person be? Will they get to pick how they are represented? If so, will we recognize them? Are endless games of lawn bowling or elderly bingo your idea of heaven? Or will everyone be a rachous, raunchy, out-of-control teenager again, with absolutely no self-control? And so on, ad infinitum...
Quote:
Originally Posted by brightdoglover
I never have, any more than I think the Hopi people are accurate in reality that they came from the center of the earth and people were formed from the earth and they are chosen people or something. I wonder why anyone would believe any of the god beliefs for even a minute. Maybe it's put in their plastic brains as children and they have to fight their way out.
I grew up with WW2 veterans and Holocaust survivors (and Eichmann books) all around me. No way to even consider any of the god things that I heard about later.
How true. Our life experiences definitely alter our "final undt absolute velt-geist, neh?" But there are so many versions, all claimed to be absolutely true, yet all in direct conflict with each other. And yet, even as a single coherent group, their God-fearing proponents won't listen to, or even read a link about, some alternate factual, proven evidence that essentially kills off the key tenets of all fixed fortification religions. Nowadays, with all the proven stuff about the universe, DNA lineage mapping, ancient earth geology and all the rest, it's simply quite absurd to just casually, hand-wavingly dismiss it all, completely out of hand. Just to sustain your now even more deeply terrified philosophical postion.
So yes, in essence, it is more than possible to be, as I am, 100% convinced and thus 98% sure, there is no specific Abrahamic God, esp. one watching over all of us simultaneously, and answering ALL our prayers! Funny!
There are of course, other alien civilizations with high intelligence. They've probably chosen to avoid our now-proven (but hopefully transient...) illiteracy and inability to accept other Universal forces, facts and figures.
No. I am absolutely sure that I currently lack belief in any god. It is not as though I am putting forth any sort of claim that I can doubt. I just have not found a reason (yet?) to believe any theists' claims. This doesn't mean that I am not open to anything new! Non-belief does not address whether or not one claims to know/not know whether god exists, nor does it address whether or not one believes that gods could be "possible." Just because I think that god could be a possibility does not mean that I believe that a particular god does in fact exist. It could, but since I have been provided with any convincing evidence of such, I currently lack belief. Of this I have no doubts!
Last edited by mythunderstood; 12-27-2011 at 05:23 PM..
to answer the OP..no, I have no doubts whatsoever...there are no deities, the bible is just a bunch of stories, there is no life after death, no heaven or hell where we go to spend eternity, ..
lots of people are afraid to even question it all for fear of retaliation by the deity they believe in, all due to the brainwashing received since birth in most cases...
to answer the OP..no, I have no doubts whatsoever...there are no deities, the bible is just a bunch of stories, there is no life after death, no heaven or hell where we go to spend eternity, ..
lots of people are afraid to even question it all for fear of retaliation by the deity they believe in, all due to the brainwashing received since birth in most cases...
Then on to the next part: Do you believe anything exists beyond the physical universe?
Then on to the next part: Do you believe anything exists beyond the physical universe?
My reaction is to ask, do you? And if not, why ask us? And if you do, on what rests your basis for that belief?
However, though this looks like a goalpost - moving question, it also has the element of developing the argument. So I'll tell you the truth.
(1) If anything exists beyond the physical universe, then that is also part of the physical universe.
(2) If there is nothing beyond the physical universe, then that 'exists' as a concept of absence (which can be quite important - absence of interior makes a bucket useful. Absence of value makes a Zero useful, absence of God - belief, empowers the mind)
(3) That said, since nobody knows anything about it, speculation is unlikely to be more than diverting mind -exercise and 'belief' even in the sense of making a reasonably informed guess is just not on the table.
So
(a) what about it?
(b) can I repeat my question to you? Do you believe anything exists beyond the physical universe? And if not, why ask us? And if you do, what is your basis for that belief?
My reaction is to ask, do you? And if not, why ask us? And if you do, on what rests your basis for that belief?
However, though this looks like a goalpost - moving question, it also has the element of developing the argument. So I'll tell you the truth.
(1) If anything exists beyond the physical universe, then that is also part of the physical universe.
(2) If there is nothing beyond the physical universe, then that 'exists' as a concept of absence (which can be quite important - absence of interior makes a bucket useful. Absence of value makes a Zero useful, absence of God - belief, empowers the mind)
(3) That said, since nobody knows anything about it, speculation is unlikely to be more than diverting mind -exercise and 'belief' even in the sense of making a reasonably informed guess is just not on the table.
So
(a) what about it?
(b) can I repeat my question to you? Do you believe anything exists beyond the physical universe? And if not, why ask us? And if you do, what is your basis for that belief?
Hi. Can you do me a favor for us "simple minded" folk.
Can you let me know if that was a "yes" or a "no"?
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