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Old 12-30-2011, 04:47 PM
 
63 posts, read 43,546 times
Reputation: 19

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
And if your beliefs were racist?
Or that child molestation was ok?
Or that gays should not have rights?
Or that women are property of men?

Why should I respect, or even be courteous to people with those beliefs?
Well, none of those are MY beliefs, but I see your point.

Perhaps "respect" was the wrong word. If an individual's beliefs are bigoted and prejudicial, then I would say you are not obliged to respect that person. I still think, however, that if they conduct themselves politely in person and keep their bigoted attitudes to themselves, then they should be treated civilly. You don't need to like them or have much respect for them - I just feel that if an individual is being polite, then others should be polite to them.

That's just how I feel, though, perhaps you feel differently. In my own view, I don't think it is right to be rude and insulting to a person unless they are behaving that way themselves.

If a person has a harmless belief that is not bigoted or prejudicial in ANY way, then I do feel that that person should be afforded courtesy and some respect as a person. Say, for instance, a person believes that leprechauns are living at the bottom of their garden. Yes, it might be a nutty belief (to most people, anyway) but it's harmless and it's a belief that does not involve any bigotry. Such a person should be treated with kindness and good manners, without people necessarily having to respect the belief that leprechauns live in his garden.
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Old 12-30-2011, 04:54 PM
 
28,905 posts, read 46,733,389 times
Reputation: 46028
Quote:
Originally Posted by caitlindwarf View Post
I was in a museum with some friends today and I made a slightly offensive remark about religion under my breath to them. Both are them are not religious. It was just in fun.

What followed was an hour long debate over whether or not I should respect religion.

I say nah, I mean, it doesn't warrant respect in my opinion because religious institutions don't respect me or other's rights. Gay rights, women's rights, etc. Not to mention if religion is some special class that's off limits from offensive jokes isn't that giving them an unwarranted power?

They told me religious people would be more likely to listen if I play nice, but then immediately said I'm not ever going to change anyone's mind. So why be nice then? I try to explain things in scientific ways and they throw out the faith card and that's when I say, "You're just silly" and walk off.

What do you guys think? Nice? Or let em have it until they back off a bit?

Now I don't go out in the streets yelling "God's not real!" everyday, nor do I ever start an argument or make an offensive comment towards religious friends, but when a debate does ensue I pull out all the stops.
See, here's the deal. You do not have superior knowledge in this situation. Maybe God exists. Maybe He doesn't. So really, absent any empirical evidence for or against God's existence, you might as well be arguing what brand of beer tastes better.

Now, let's move on. You seem to want to put all people of faith in the same box, as if we were all a bunch of homophobic, misogynistic types who breathe through our mouths and walk with our knuckles dragging the ground. Actually, the opposite is true, since there are any number of denominations that are rather socially progressive, have remained on the cutting edge of various civil rights movements, work to alleviate poverty, and don't believe that Genesis and Darwin are mutually exclusive.

So basically you indulge in stereotyping, which makes you intellectually lazy.
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Old 12-30-2011, 05:03 PM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
8,396 posts, read 9,143,473 times
Reputation: 13031
Let's put the shoe on the other foot and see how it feels
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOTcaitlindwarf View Post
I was in a museum with some friends today and I made a slightly offensive remark about athiesm under my breath to them. Both are them are not atheists. It was just in fun.

What followed was an hour long debate over whether or not I should respect atheism.

I say nah, I mean, it doesn't warrant respect in my opinion because athesits don't respect me or ......
Common courtesy and being nice will win more people over than disrespect.

And if you disrespect other peoples beliefs don't complain when your views and not respected.
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Old 12-30-2011, 05:10 PM
 
63 posts, read 43,546 times
Reputation: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
Common courtesy and being nice will win more people over than disrespect.
I think there is some truth to the saying, "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar."
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Old 12-30-2011, 05:52 PM
 
Location: Texas
1,303 posts, read 1,854,728 times
Reputation: 714
I would be as nice to someone who's religious as they are to me. I'll never respect certain beliefs that some people have, but unless they were tossing them around in everyone's face like some obnoxious moron, I'd never confront anyone over such things in a hostile manner.

One thing I have zero tolerance for is Christians (and it's most always them) who play the easily offended card at the drop of a hat while being as offensive to others as they possibly can. If I have to walk on eggshells to keep you from whining about being "insulted" or disrespected, we'd probably not get along very well in the first place.
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Old 12-30-2011, 07:41 PM
 
Location: FL
1,727 posts, read 2,175,793 times
Reputation: 1039
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post

And if your beliefs were racist?
Or that child molestation was ok?
Or that gays should not have rights?
Or that women are property of men?

Why should I respect, or even be courteous to people with those beliefs?
YOU can do what you want, and I will respectfuly disagree with you.

I don't agree with any of the things you mentioned, but I also don't think we need to treat people with those opinions like dirt. You can disagree with someone without being rude. Well maybe not "you" specifically, but it is possible for some of us to disagree with someone without being rude.

If you fall under any of the catgories you mentioned above and have been mistreated because of it, then, I certainly understand the anger, and maybe if I had been subjected to any of those things, I might feel differently.

But given the life I have lived, I don't find it necessary to insult people who have different beliefs than mine.
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Old 12-30-2011, 08:12 PM
 
16,598 posts, read 14,075,580 times
Reputation: 20562
Quote:
Originally Posted by looking4answers12 View Post
YOU can do what you want, and I will respectfuly disagree with you.

I don't agree with any of the things you mentioned, but I also don't think we need to treat people with those opinions like dirt. You can disagree with someone without being rude. Well maybe not "you" specifically, but it is possible for some of us to disagree with someone without being rude.

If you fall under any of the catgories you mentioned above and have been mistreated because of it, then, I certainly understand the anger, and maybe if I had been subjected to any of those things, I might feel differently.

But given the life I have lived, I don't find it necessary to insult people who have different beliefs than mine.
Again with the logical fallacy, either treat people like dirt or respect them.

Telling people that their beliefs are intolerable or even stupid is not treating them like dirt.
Moderator cut: deleted as personal

Last edited by Miss Blue; 01-02-2012 at 01:18 PM..
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Old 12-30-2011, 11:50 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
15,310 posts, read 10,341,228 times
Reputation: 2612
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
And if your beliefs were racist?
Or that child molestation was ok?
Or that gays should not have rights?
Or that women are property of men?

Why should I respect, or even be courteous to people with those beliefs?
My sentiments exactly.

What we see with theists and Christians in particular, is a demand for respect for their beliefs. Whilst demanding this respect for their beliefs, they are telling other theists that their beliefs are wrong, that they are worshipping a false god and that they are well on their way to 'hell'. It doesn't appear to enter their minds that they are not giving the respect to other religious beliefs that they are demanding for their own.

Again I call on H.L Mencken to put my case....

"The most curious social convention of the great age in which we live is the one to the effect that religious opinions should be respected."

"The way to deal with superstition is not to be polite to it, but to tackle it with all arms, and so rout it, cripple it, and make it forever infamous and ridiculous. Is it, perchance, cherished by persons who should know better? Then their folly should be brought out into the light of day, and exhibited there in all its hideousness until they flee from it, hiding their heads in shame.
True enough, even a superstitious man has certain inalienable rights. He has a right to harbor and indulge his imbecilities as long as he pleases, provided only he does not try to inflict them upon other men by force. He has a right to argue for them as eloquently as he can, in season and out of season. He has a right to teach them to his children. But certainly he has no right to be protected against the free criticism of those who do not hold them. He has no right to demand that they be treated as sacred. He has no right to preach them without challenge. Did Darrow, in the course of his dreadful bombardment of Bryan, drop a few shells, incidentally, into measurably cleaner camps? Then let the garrisons of those camps look to their defenses. They are free to shoot back. But they can't disarm their enemy."
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Old 12-31-2011, 12:26 AM
 
Location: Metromess
11,798 posts, read 21,978,743 times
Reputation: 5074
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
Let's put the shoe on the other foot and see how it feels

Common courtesy and being nice will win more people over than disrespect.

And if you disrespect other peoples beliefs don't complain when your views and not respected.
As much as it pains me to say so, I agree. "Sugar draws more flies than vinegar".
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Old 12-31-2011, 04:06 AM
 
63 posts, read 43,546 times
Reputation: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
Again I call on H.L Mencken to put my case....

"The most curious social convention of the great age in which we live is the one to the effect that religious opinions should be respected."

"The way to deal with superstition is not to be polite to it, but to tackle it with all arms, and so rout it, cripple it, and make it forever infamous and ridiculous. Is it, perchance, cherished by persons who should know better? Then their folly should be brought out into the light of day, and exhibited there in all its hideousness until they flee from it, hiding their heads in shame.
True enough, even a superstitious man has certain inalienable rights. He has a right to harbor and indulge his imbecilities as long as he pleases, provided only he does not try to inflict them upon other men by force. He has a right to argue for them as eloquently as he can, in season and out of season. He has a right to teach them to his children. But certainly he has no right to be protected against the free criticism of those who do not hold them. He has no right to demand that they be treated as sacred. He has no right to preach them without challenge. Did Darrow, in the course of his dreadful bombardment of Bryan, drop a few shells, incidentally, into measurably cleaner camps? Then let the garrisons of those camps look to their defenses. They are free to shoot back. But they can't disarm their enemy."

I don't think anyone has said that the beliefs themselves need to be respected.

But a person can tell someone that they think their beliefs are stupid, crazy, et all, without being rude or insulting to the person that holds them, and insulting them personally.

I certainly agree that ideas and beliefs should be open to criticism, but what I think people should do is criticise the beliefs, but refrain from being insulting to the individuals that hold them - unless the individuals themselves are behaving badly, in which case there would be some justification.

Again with myself an example. I'm sure many people here think my occult beliefs are crazy and you are free to tell me that you think my beliefs are weird/unfounded, etc, if you wish. But would you personally attack me for believing in the supernatural and the paranormal? I would certainly hope not, and if anyone did, that would be unfair, unkind and wrong, in my view.

To me, it's about separating the beliefs from the people. Attack the belief, but unless the individual is behaving rudely, aggressively, etc, then they should not be personally attacked.

Like lkb said, they don't necessarily need to be treated with respect, people can simply walk by and ignore them if they choose. I just feel that if a person, any person, is behaving with politeness, then they should receive politeness in return. I make a great effort to be civil to people and if someone chose to insult me just because I believed in certain things they didn't, that would be (to me) extremely bad manners.
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