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Old 12-31-2011, 04:17 AM
 
63 posts, read 43,633 times
Reputation: 19

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
But to sit by and not challenge beliefs that attempt to make some people "lesser" in the name of a courtesy that they are not extending is RIDICULOUS.
I agree here, if someone has beliefs that you feel are immoral or prejudicial then it is certainly acceptable to challenge them and explain to the person why you think they are wrong and why you find their views so offensive.

I myself do the same thing if I think someone is prejudiced and bigoted and overly judgmental. I challenge them (non-aggressively) and tell them why I think their views are abhorrent.

So I am in agreement with you here.

I simply see no reason to personally attack someone unless they are behaving in an insulting manner towards you themselves. I agree that people should challenge, question and criticise people's beliefs if they wish, but I think they should try to do so without personally insulting the other party. Like you said, you don't have to be OVERLY nice to them, either - you can simply ignore them or just tell them why you think their views are so wrong or immoral.
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Old 12-31-2011, 06:54 AM
 
39,369 posts, read 10,962,304 times
Reputation: 5111
Where we seem to have got to is a pretty reasonable concensus: 'Polite, but not silent'.

I try to to be personally antagonistic,though of course is someone is talking cobblers, it is justifiable to explain it. Just tossing insults with no explanation is 'vinegar'. Encouraging rational thought and questioning with praise is honey and why the hell that isn't in Proverbs, I can't think.

One thing is sure: I agree with Mencken, that we can't be silent in the face of false reasoning, misrepresentation of evidence and holding up superstition as fact. It is our duty to speak out and not to be silent.
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Old 12-31-2011, 07:15 AM
 
Location: FL
1,727 posts, read 2,181,103 times
Reputation: 1039
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Why are the only two options "respect" or "treating them like dirt"?

How about ignoring them? Telling them you think their beliefs are intolerable? Why are these not options as well?

Seems to be a bit of an extreme false dichotomy, doesn't it.



Who said racists are horrible people? Maybe I should reiterate since there seems to be some sort of comprehension problem.

Why should I be respectful to people, say racists, whose very beliefs are not?? Why are they deserving of respect, when they think that my brother is less of a human being just for being of mixed race?

They have obviously voiced their beliefs or no one would know what they are. But to sit by and not challenge beliefs that attempt to make some people "lesser" in the name of a courtesy that they are not extending is RIDICULOUS.



Ah, so if some one believes child molestation is acceptable then it isn't your place to make them see that is wrong? What utter crap. People who are immoral should not be extended respect when they do not respect others. How about a little of the golden rule?

If someone is telling me their racist beliefs or that they think it is okay to touch little kids, I am going to tell the former exactly why they are offending me and make sure the latter is nowhere near my own children.



Again, false dichotomy. And lets be really, really clear here. You are saying "treating like dirt" as an attempt to make the scenario far more dichotomous than need be. I would never physically attack someone for their beliefs but if some racist person is expressing to me or my daughter that they think she is less of a human being than they are, WHY SHOULD I BE RESPECTFUL TO THEM?

Is not the very heart of the belief of racism (that other races have less value) NOT DISRESPECTFUL? If someone tells me or mine that we are lesser people, how is my vigorous defense of my daughters very existence treating the racist "like dirt"?
I love how you love to pick things apart.

Of course ignoring them is an option. A great one in fact! Glad we can agree on something.

I'll stop there, since you seem to be more interested in insulting people than having a "respectful" debate (or discussion) with them. By the way, I have found more than one definition for the word "discussion". Not all definitions include the word "debate".

Have a great day. As I've said, I'm not here to "debate". I choose to focus on "listening" to what other people believe when they can do so without being antagonistic, arrogant and insulting.
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Old 12-31-2011, 07:23 AM
 
Location: FL
1,727 posts, read 2,181,103 times
Reputation: 1039
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Where we seem to have got to is a pretty reasonable concensus: 'Polite, but not silent'.

I try to to be personally antagonistic,though of course is someone is talking cobblers, it is justifiable to explain it. Just tossing insults with no explanation is 'vinegar'. Encouraging rational thought and questioning with praise is honey and why the hell that isn't in Proverbs, I can't think.

One thing is sure: I agree with Mencken, that we can't be silent in the face of false reasoning, misrepresentation of evidence and holding up superstition as fact. It is our duty to speak out and not to be silent.

I can live with "polite but not silent", especially when someone is insulting you in the process of trying to enlighten you.

That being said...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714
But to sit by and not challenge beliefs that attempt to make some people "lesser" in the name of a courtesy that they are not extending is RIDICULOUS.
Moderator cut: delete
I could "take of the gloves" in the face of insults, but I choose not to.
What is the purpose of insulting people? I just don't get it.

Last edited by Miss Blue; 01-02-2012 at 01:25 PM.. Reason: attack/insult
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Old 12-31-2011, 07:26 AM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,609 posts, read 4,123,602 times
Reputation: 1399
Yes, Caitlin, you should be nice to people, even religious people.

As I look back on my life of 66 years, the things I most regret are the times I was nasty to people and showed them a lack of respect.
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Old 12-31-2011, 07:36 AM
 
Location: FL
1,727 posts, read 2,181,103 times
Reputation: 1039
(sigh)

I went back and read the rest...

You are reading things into my posts that are not there.

I am not an "all or nothing person". There is always a middle ground. YOU can handle things however YOU choose to.

MY opinion is that if you "go off on someone" it is going to do very little to convince them they are wrong. I have no issue with voicing your opinion or "calling them out" on their racist or homophobic views.

I understand that sometimes silence can be viewed as agreement and I understand the dangers of that.

I don't always stand by silently, but I do choose my battles and when I do TRY to voice my opinion, I TRY to do so in a respectful way. This is how I choose to handle myself.

You've asked me a couple times "why should I treat these people with respect". I've answered the best I can. I think everyone should be treated with respect, even those who don't deserve it. It's MY opinion. I don't feel the need to convince you otherwise. You do what you feel is right.

You mentioned your daughter...Of course I understand the parents need to protect their child. I have a daughter too. I understand what it's like to have your daughter be viewed "as a lesser person". Fortunately, this did not happen to my daughter until she was in her mid to late teens, and for the most part she chose to fight her own battles. In fact, for the most part, she HATES it when I try to fight her battles for her. She KNOWS she is not a lesser person and she cares very little about what others think about her. Of course sometimes it hurts her feelings (I imagine) but I believe that deep down, her self good self esteem has allowed her to recognize that some people are ignorant and their opinions matter very little.

Perhaps if her victimization had been more intense, I might be more angry. I don't know how I would feel if that were the case. I would like to think that if I were faced with such a thing, I would do whatever is necessary without taking it out on the whole world.
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Old 12-31-2011, 11:37 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
15,336 posts, read 10,378,324 times
Reputation: 2619
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiritual_Occultist View Post
I don't think anyone has said that the beliefs themselves need to be respected.

But a person can tell someone that they think their beliefs are stupid, crazy, et all, without being rude or insulting to the person that holds them, and insulting them personally.

Well...you know Christians. With some of them you only have to say good morning and they'll start screaming 'Stop disrespecting me!!'

Bit like this.....

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Old 12-31-2011, 12:30 PM
 
16,679 posts, read 14,135,253 times
Reputation: 20631
Quote:
Originally Posted by looking4answers12 View Post
I would like to think that if I were faced with such a thing, I would do whatever is necessary without taking it out on the whole world.
Moderator cut: delete
Random generalization like "taking it out on the whole world" are yet another logical fallacy. I am in a forum that at its heart is a debate forum (however you want to define it) and as such I will choose to debate on the topics as I see fit. Moderator cut: delete

Last edited by Miss Blue; 01-02-2012 at 01:30 PM.. Reason: portions of quoted post have been deleted making part of this post orphaned
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Old 12-31-2011, 04:28 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,313 posts, read 3,888,871 times
Reputation: 2577
Quote:
Originally Posted by caitlindwarf View Post
I was in a museum with some friends today and I made a slightly offensive remark about religion under my breath to them. Both are them are not religious. It was just in fun.

What followed was an hour long debate over whether or not I should respect religion.

I say nah, I mean, it doesn't warrant respect in my opinion because religious institutions don't respect me or other's rights. Gay rights, women's rights, etc. Not to mention if religion is some special class that's off limits from offensive jokes isn't that giving them an unwarranted power?

They told me religious people would be more likely to listen if I play nice, but then immediately said I'm not ever going to change anyone's mind. So why be nice then? I try to explain things in scientific ways and they throw out the faith card and that's when I say, "You're just silly" and walk off.

What do you guys think? Nice? Or let em have it until they back off a bit?

Now I don't go out in the streets yelling "God's not real!" everyday, nor do I ever start an argument or make an offensive comment towards religious friends, but when a debate does ensue I pull out all the stops.
This is what I conclude based on what you wrote.

1. You think religious people are not nice so it is OK to join them to the level you accuse them of, correct?

2. You stereotype them. So it is OK to treat all religious people with disdain even if they are nice to you, correct?

3. It seems you closed your mind so no need to listen to what they have to say, correct?

4. You think that if someone simply explains his views and it based on faith, no need to be polite, correct?

Now, should you be nice to religious folks? My answer is this. The people that are nice to you regardless whether they are religious or not deserve the same treatment. Even in some cases people that are not nice to you whether they are religious or not is a good advice to reply with kindness. Very often that works also. It is up to you if you decide to be a jerk or not. YOU have control on that, no one else. In other words it is up whether you can rise to an ocasion or not. Take care.
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Old 12-31-2011, 04:37 PM
 
16,679 posts, read 14,135,253 times
Reputation: 20631
Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo View Post
This is what I conclude based on what you wrote.

1. You think religious people are not nice so it is OK to join them to the level you accuse them of, correct?

2. You stereotype them. So it is OK to treat all religious people with disdain even if they are nice to you, correct?

3. It seems you closed your mind so no need to listen to what they have to say, correct?

4. You think that if someone simply explains his views and it based on faith, no need to be polite, correct?

Now, should you be nice to religious folks? My answer is this. The people that are nice to you regardless whether they are religious or not deserve the same treatment. Even in some cases people that are not nice to you whether they are religious or not is a good advice to reply with kindness. Very often that works also. It is up to you if you decide to be a jerk or not. YOU have control on that, no one else. In other words it is up whether you can rise to an ocasion or not. Take care.
Many religious beliefs are about disrespect, to gays, women, entire groups of people. Why should we be tolerant of intolerance just because it comes wrapped in a religious package?

Second, how would anyone know about these religious beliefs if people are not spouting off about them? Because I can guarantee you as an atheist I NEVER start a conversation about religion or beliefs. Maybe some do, but that is obviously the minority compared to the number of believers who feel they should be allowed to "share" their beliefs without being subjected to mine.
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