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Old 01-02-2012, 05:00 PM
 
16,679 posts, read 14,135,253 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo View Post
There is nothing wrong with people expressing his beliefs whatever they are. How do people know you are atheist? Because I am sure you state that. What is wrong if someone express if they are theists? Nothing wrong with that either.
I have never in my life, stated what my views on theism FIRST.

Quote:
People all the time express their views on all kinds of areas in life from politics, animal rights, the environment, atheism, education, economy, etc. Why is it that doing the very same thing about religions is anathema?
You apparently did not read carefully. I fully support their right to express their opinion, but in doing so, they open themselves up to judgements about those opinions. And that is where the difference comes in. When someone tells me "climate change is not real". I will explain to them exactly why they are wrong. But people in this thread think a christian expressing their beliefs should not be subjected to those responses.

That is the special treatment religious people expect. Personally I see no difference between views on religion or any of the others things you stated. I treat them all the same.

Quote:
Also, what is wrong in starting a conversation on religion? Nothing. You just dislike it. If someone starts a converstaion about atheism, do you take offense? Do you tell that person to stop talking about atheism? I really doubt you do.
Really a bit off here. I am in an entire forum on religion, obviously I have NO problem talking about it.

Again, I have never brought up religion, EVER. But when someone else brings it up they deserve no more consideration for their "beliefs" than any other beliefs. If they bring it up, than they are now subjecting those beliefs to judgement.

Quote:
Someone starts to talk about religion, I either leave the conversation, express my views, or state I do no care to discuss the issue.

If that person insist in pushing his views on me, then, of course I will take the level to a higher point of acertiveness. No biggie.
Again I have to question you reading comprehension. I have stated multiple times in this thread and been chastised for the fact that I always treat beliefs all the same. If I find your beliefs baseless, or irrational, I will tell you so.

Quote:
In some ways I see your comments similar to sexual harassment. If the lady likes the guy she will most likely welcome a comment or flirty approach. However, the same comment or flirty approach can be called sexual harassment because it is unwelcome since probably the lady does not like the guy.
This part of this post is really offensive in its belittlement and ignorance of what sexual harassment actually is. Ugh.

Sexual harassment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is REALLY no flirting.

Quote:
I see people in life that will be polite and courteous to many people out there when they express a view, opinion, etc. even if they are not congruent with the recepient. However, the very same act from a religious guy "Oh no! God! Oh no God!" and go into emotional convulsions.
ROFLMAO. Again, reading is fundamental.

I have no problem telling religious people who start with their "beliefs" that I think their beliefs are downright silly. I can tell you I have never had emotional convulsions even though most of them have.

Quote:
The bottom line? Nothing wrong with people expressing their religioius beliefs. How they do so is what makes the difference and how much disdain they (you as you come across with me) they may have towards those that are religious. Take care.
I do not have disdain for you as a person. I do not know you. I do not have much respect for your posts as them seem to lack some grasp of what is actually being said.

A reminder:

Originally Posted by lkb0714
But to sit by and not challenge beliefs that attempt to make some people "lesser" in the name of a courtesy that they are not extending is RIDICULOUS.

Notice I never said people cannot state their opinions?? Because of course they can BUT they are then going to hear mine. They are not some special set of beliefs that need to be tolerated just because they are fairytales.
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Old 01-02-2012, 08:11 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,313 posts, read 3,888,871 times
Reputation: 2577
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
I have never in my life, stated what my views on theism FIRST.
It does not matter whether you stated them first or not. If you state them, good. Nothing wrong with that. The same with others that state their theist views.


You apparently did not read carefully. I fully support their right to express their opinion, but in doing so, they open themselves up to judgements about those opinions. And that is where the difference comes in. When someone tells me "climate change is not real". I will explain to them exactly why they are wrong. But people in this thread think a christian expressing their beliefs should not be subjected to those responses.
Nothing wrong with replying to others when they express their views. The focal point is not so much about replying, you may deny it but you reflect. You know what, I have not problem with you having disdain for people that try to impose their views on you but at least to me you come across as labeling ALL of them as such, stereotyping.

That is the special treatment religious people expect. Personally I see no difference between views on religion or any of the others things you stated. I treat them all the same.
You may treat everybody the same. If that is the case, great. Good for you. So if an atheist does bring his atheist views in a converstaion you will bring it to his attention just as you would to a Christian? If so, that is good then.


Really a bit off here. I am in an entire forum on religion, obviously I have NO problem talking about it.

Again, I have never brought up religion, EVER. But when someone else brings it up they deserve no more consideration for their "beliefs" than any other beliefs. If they bring it up, than they are now subjecting those beliefs to judgement.
Oh! nothing wrong with talking about religion on this forum. I did address the disdain on the issue. Why not simply say how they disrespect gays, women, etc? I did address that and how I handle it. You did not.



Again I have to question you reading comprehension. I have stated multiple times in this thread and been chastised for the fact that I always treat beliefs all the same. If I find your beliefs baseless, or irrational, I will tell you so.
I agree with expressing if beliefs are baseless or irrational. Nothing wrong with that. Again, you do not come across with me this way. I do not think you will react, comment, and disagre with the same passion on other beliefs.



This part of this post is really offensive in its belittlement and ignorance of what sexual harassment actually is. Ugh.

Sexual harassment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is REALLY no flirting.
Well, if you missed the comparison, forget it. Disregard.



ROFLMAO. Again, reading is fundamental.
Agreed, reading is fundamental, parallels are used to bring a point. If you missed it, forget it as I said. Disregard.


I have no problem telling religious people who start with their "beliefs" that I think their beliefs are downright silly. I can tell you I have never had emotional convulsions even though most of them have.
Well, you come across by the way you express yourself. Sorry but that is how I see it. Again, no problem telling people your differing views. I have not said such thing.



I do not have disdain for you as a person. I do not know you. I do not have much respect for your posts as them seem to lack some grasp of what is actually being said.
I am sure you have no disdain towards me, I believe you. That does not mean your comments or action cannot be disdainful when you talk about religious people or views, that is what I point out as you come across.
Your posts? I do respect them regardless of what you say. I do grasp what you say but it just seems you are actually saying that you do not agree with me and instead of simply disagreeing. I covered your points.



A reminder:

Originally Posted by lkb0714
But to sit by and not challenge beliefs that attempt to make some people "lesser" in the name of a courtesy that they are not extending is RIDICULOUS.
Nothing wrong with challenging others views. How it is done can either be productive or not.

Notice I never said people cannot state their opinions?? Because of course they can BUT they are then going to hear mine. They are not some special set of beliefs that need to be tolerated just because they are fairytales.
I never said you "people cannot state their opinion". Can you quote me that I said such thing? I support if they state their and you express yours. They are no special than your or mine, agreed. I do believe in tolerance. I suppose this may be the root of the issue. I do tolerate others views however silly or stupid they may seem. I do not go into gyrations as you come across as you express yours. Take care.
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Old 01-02-2012, 08:28 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,313 posts, read 3,888,871 times
Reputation: 2577
Quote:
Originally Posted by caitlindwarf View Post
I guess I should have worded my post differently because everyone seems to be taking it the wrong way.

I am SUPER NICE and polite to every single person I come into contact with, religious or not. It's when a debate starts that people tell me I'm being offensive when I explain why I don't think god can exist. Yes, I do get frustrated when they throw out the faith card because that's the equivalent of saying Santa Claus is real because I think so, no questions asked.

I do not stereotype all religious people. I know many religious people who are pro-choice, support gay rights, etc.

I think the "Polite but not silent" is a good mantra.

Also, to reiterate, I wouldn't even care to debunk religion if it didn't hold such a powerful position in our society and threaten the rights of others.
Thanks for the reply. You came across differently on the OP so I replied pointing that out. However, I must say you show you are a polite and nice person by admitting you may have worded things that may not truly reflect what you are saying, thanks.

On the second part I do understand your frustration. I do believe in God I don not believe in the Bible as being his word or Jesus his Son. As far as the faith card, well, I will share how I handle that and why. I share the same thing with people that throw the faith card.

First of all, I do not get frustrated by using this tactic. I love to learn how people believe, why, and how they handle their beliefs and opposition to them from others.
Often, I find that even though I may not agree I at least understand why someone believes that way. People come in all varieties and to many having faith helps them cope with life better. Others, maybe like you, by other type of philosophical reasoning.
In other words my inquiring mind when it comes to human behavior helps me not get frustrated.
As far as faith holding such powerful hold in society, I agree. Unfortunately, it is a difficult thing to overcome because of the widespread belief in religion and the influence it has on society as a whole.

I do have a daughter that is very, well, extremely religious. I am able to get more out of her by showing an inquisitive attitude. I also tell her how by her being extremist she only close others minds, like possibly yours. That is what I am actually trying to convey here.
I am not trying to say be polite to a religious jerk or nut. If they earn a rude reply, so be it, but, the same I tell others when they behave the same way.
I am also not saying not to reply back. You and others cannot quote me as saying that. If it comes across that way, I clarify it now. I am not a perfect writer and what I write is open for missinterpretations just like all of us here. Take care.
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Old 01-02-2012, 10:31 PM
 
203 posts, read 488,432 times
Reputation: 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by caitlindwarf View Post
I was in a museum with some friends today and I made a slightly offensive remark about religion under my breath to them. Both are them are not religious. It was just in fun.

What followed was an hour long debate over whether or not I should respect religion.

I say nah, I mean, it doesn't warrant respect in my opinion because religious institutions don't respect me or other's rights. Gay rights, women's rights, etc. Not to mention if religion is some special class that's off limits from offensive jokes isn't that giving them an unwarranted power?

They told me religious people would be more likely to listen if I play nice, but then immediately said I'm not ever going to change anyone's mind. So why be nice then? I try to explain things in scientific ways and they throw out the faith card and that's when I say, "You're just silly" and walk off.

What do you guys think? Nice? Or let em have it until they back off a bit?

Now I don't go out in the streets yelling "God's not real!" everyday, nor do I ever start an argument or make an offensive comment towards religious friends, but when a debate does ensue I pull out all the stops.
Won't people ever figure out that you might as well let other peoples belief run off you like water. You can't change other people's beliefs whether it is politics, religion or whatever the discussion is about. All you wind up doing is making enemies of former friends and when you are not present they they just discuss what an idiot you are.

I used have Mormans and can't remember what the other religion was drop by and if I had nothing else to do we could spend a whole afternoon discussing their beliefs as opposed to mine. It kind of helped that I didn't know much about religion in the first place but it was a way to kill time and I didn't set out to get in a big fight and we all ended up believing the same thing as we did in the first place and there was no blood shed or hurt feelings. I became a regular on their route and I think they enjoyed as much as I did.

I sure messed up their schedule though I'm sure.
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Old 01-02-2012, 10:32 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 11,393,634 times
Reputation: 3735
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
...I do not think anyone need defer to someone's religious leanings. That being said "courtesy" is warranted in any situation (aside from a debate of the inherent value of religious beliefs) where you are dealing with the diversity of the human experience.
Agreed, but what has bothered me in my past is when I came to realize that my once-overly-polite nature (as in: not generally wanting to upset the discussional applecart...) had typically allowed overly snooty Christians in the typical water-cooler crowd discussions make all sorts of noisy and overt judgements while they sneered down their noses at atheists (when they didn't know I was one, and was being insulted by their grossly inaccurate statements... sigh)

Quote:
Originally Posted by looking4answers12 View Post
Maybe you don't need to respect religion, but can you treat the people who are religious with a little respect?

Treat people the way you want to be treated instead of how they treat you? Just something to think about.

I hope that doesn't make me sound like a self righteous snob. Trust me I'm not. I get good and angry about certain things too. But, I do TRY to hold myself to that higher standard. I think we all have setbacks at times.
Sadly, while I agree with your admirably polite attitude on a philosophical basis, I have found most fundamentalist Christians to be outright snobby and self-righteous in their total assumption of the "somehow" existence of their particular God, as well as their truly laughable inconsistencies and opinions of atheists and all their fantasy assumptions!! In other words, they don't apply your hoped-for ethics to others in so many cases. As in:

"They're always so silly, aren't they, Madge? They even say Evolution has been proved! Now that's just ridiculous, isn't it??"

Right. But meantime...
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Old 01-03-2012, 09:14 AM
 
16,679 posts, read 14,135,253 times
Reputation: 20632
Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo View Post
I never said you "people cannot state their opinion". Can you quote me that I said such thing? I support if they state their and you express yours. They are no special than your or mine, agreed. I do believe in tolerance. I suppose this may be the root of the issue. I do tolerate others views however silly or stupid they may seem. I do not go into gyrations as you come across as you express yours. Take care.
I do disdain ALL religious beliefs.

dis·dain

 /dɪsˈdeɪn, dɪˈsteɪn/ Show Spelled[dis-deyn, dih-steyn] Show IPA
verb (used with object) 1. to look upon or treat with contempt; despise; scorn.

2. to think unworthy of notice, response, etc.; consider beneath oneself: to disdain replying to an insult.

Along the lines of the second definition but a good dose of the first. There are lots of beliefs I have disdain for, racism, homophobia, etc

Why wouldn't I? They have no logical reason to exist, horrible things were done in their name, etc.

Therefore, I will not pretend a respect that religions beliefs do not merit when someone decides to bring their religious beliefs up to me. And I say again, I NEVER bring up my beliefs on religion. So it is not as if I run about confronting the many people I know who believe these things.

But there seems to be some expectation that I treat beliefs that are silly at best and dangerous at worst with some sort of respect. NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN. So if people want me to be nice to their beliefs, don't discuss them with me. Simple.
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Old 01-03-2012, 09:21 AM
 
16,679 posts, read 14,135,253 times
Reputation: 20632
Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo View Post
rd.

First of all, I do not get frustrated by using this tactic. I love to learn how people believe, why, and how they handle their beliefs and opposition to them from others.
Often, I find that even though I may not agree I at least understand why someone believes that way. People come in all varieties and to many having faith helps them cope with life better. Others, maybe like you, by other type of philosophical reasoning.
In other words my inquiring mind when it comes to human behavior helps me not get frustrated.
As far as faith holding such powerful hold in society, I agree. Unfortunately, it is a difficult thing to overcome because of the widespread belief in religion and the influence it has on society as a whole.
Maybe I wasn't clear. I do not care what people believe or have any interest in WHY they believe it because it all boils down to being irrational. Belief in something that cannot be proven is at its very core, NOT based on logic or reason.

So to me asking why someone has these irrational beliefs is the same thing as asking an adult why they believe in the tooth fairy. Unproductive at best.

I have no interest in changing someone's mind, and really no interest in discussing these things with believers I know IRL. When they bring up their beliefs, I tell them I do not share them. When they ask why I state exactly what I said above, and thankfully, the conversation usually ends there.

But most believers seem to feel that their beliefs merit inherent respect. They do not.
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Old 01-03-2012, 11:02 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
15,336 posts, read 10,378,324 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
But most believers seem to feel that their beliefs merit inherent respect. They do not.
Hear! Hear!
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Old 01-03-2012, 12:51 PM
 
2,448 posts, read 2,686,061 times
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Only the ones that are nice to you, but the fact still remains gays can't get married, kids are being thrown out of their house by their parents for "coming out" as atheists, and the endless list....
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Old 01-06-2012, 02:48 PM
 
Location: Western Cary, NC
4,349 posts, read 6,629,029 times
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"Nicer" is a relative term. I think you can be civil, and unless you think they are mentally impaired, I would treat them no different than your mother in law or politician.
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