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Old 01-06-2012, 02:50 PM
 
164 posts, read 161,157 times
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Many of you self proclaimed atheists deride Christians, but do not even have the courage to take advantage of your situation, nor do you fully confide in your convictions.
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Old 01-06-2012, 03:06 PM
 
16,105 posts, read 17,923,003 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansarado View Post
Many of you self proclaimed atheists deride Christians, but do not even have the courage to take advantage of your situation, nor do you fully confide in your convictions.
What does this mean? The only conviction I have as an atheist is that I do not believe in god. I leave open the very small possibility of a god who takes no interest in interfering in this world, but certainly the Christian god does not exist.
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Old 01-07-2012, 02:20 PM
 
Location: Metromess
11,798 posts, read 21,996,789 times
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In reference to a pair of largely incoherent but generally offensive emails I have received recently, I'm beginning to doubt the wisdom of being nicer to the religious. You know who you are.
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Old 01-08-2012, 05:59 AM
 
39,207 posts, read 10,887,543 times
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It is worth noting the recent 'Awful woman' thread. Clearly, there are cases where appeals to being nice about people's religious faith will not wash. One has to speak out and protest because of our duty to others, and to the truth.
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Old 01-09-2012, 09:57 AM
 
164 posts, read 161,157 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
It is worth noting the recent 'Awful woman' thread. Clearly, there are cases where appeals to being nice about people's religious faith will not wash. One has to speak out and protest because of our duty to others, and to the truth.
What truth is it that you speak of?
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Old 01-09-2012, 05:20 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,313 posts, read 3,883,950 times
Reputation: 2572
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
I do disdain ALL religious beliefs.

dis·dain

   /dɪsˈdeɪn, dɪˈsteɪn/ Show Spelled[dis-deyn, dih-steyn] Show IPA
verb (used with object) 1. to look upon or treat with contempt; despise; scorn.

2. to think unworthy of notice, response, etc.; consider beneath oneself: to disdain replying to an insult.

Along the lines of the second definition but a good dose of the first. There are lots of beliefs I have disdain for, racism, homophobia, etc

Why wouldn't I? They have no logical reason to exist, horrible things were done in their name, etc.

Therefore, I will not pretend a respect that religions beliefs do not merit when someone decides to bring their religious beliefs up to me. And I say again, I NEVER bring up my beliefs on religion. So it is not as if I run about confronting the many people I know who believe these things.

But there seems to be some expectation that I treat beliefs that are silly at best and dangerous at worst with some sort of respect. NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN. So if people want me to be nice to their beliefs, don't discuss them with me. Simple.
I agree that people have been fanatic about theism just as there about atheism, sad bu true. However, I suppose here is where we differ because I have the emotional discipline to respect a person that out of sincerity may bring up religion to me. Depending on the situation and the method used, I will be polite but I could respond in more string and aggressive methods if necessary.
One example is a pastor in our city that is trying to have a recall on our mayor and a couple of city councilmen. They decided to veto the vote of the the pastor's church that wanted to deny city employee benefits because they are gay. Does that upset me? You bet it does. However, there are many religious people that do not approve of that that pastor does. That is why I would not treat them ALL because not ALL are irrational in how they live their lives. Many of them may believe that God sees homosexuality as a sin but they simply believe in letting God judge that, not them. I welcome discussing any believe however irrational it may look. Why? Because there is always something interesting when you exchange views with other people. To say the least it reinforces some angle of my views, take care.
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Old 01-09-2012, 05:47 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,313 posts, read 3,883,950 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Maybe I wasn't clear. I do not care what people believe or have any interest in WHY they believe it because it all boils down to being irrational. Belief in something that cannot be proven is at its very core, NOT based on logic or reason.

So to me asking why someone has these irrational beliefs is the same thing as asking an adult why they believe in the tooth fairy. Unproductive at best.

I have no interest in changing someone's mind, and really no interest in discussing these things with believers I know IRL. When they bring up their beliefs, I tell them I do not share them. When they ask why I state exactly what I said above, and thankfully, the conversation usually ends there.

But most believers seem to feel that their beliefs merit inherent respect. They do not.
Thanks for the reply. You brought up an interesting point. You wrote "I do not care what people believe or have any interest in WHY they believe it because it all boils down to being irrational. Belief in something that cannot be proven is at its very core, NOT based on logic or reason."
I venture to guess that there have been you have acted or made decision with simply intuition with no evidence whatsoever. Later you either were lucky and made the right call or fee stupid for doing so.
The same about religion. You may not see any logic in it. However, many people may see logic in it. Also, they may not have the answers but simply go by their intuition (call it faith if you want) and live their live based on it. Many of them do live very happy and productive lives. Also, many of them are highly educated in the sciences, have Phds in very scientific fields. To many of them there is no harm.
Now, I agree with you if someone comes to me trying to change my mind. However, to me there is a difference between trying to change my mind or simply sharing their views. Do you share things in your life with others? I venture to say you do and that may include philosophical views. What is wrong with that? Not with me. When you discuss issues here, is there not sharing your views? What is wrong if someone does the same but with religion.
I have noticed that many people react very politely to others when they share political, social, or philosophical view. BUT, once someone does the very same thing but it is religion, heck no! It is OK to be a jerk.
Lastly, my personal view on that is that ALL views deserve respect as long as they are not imposed on me however stupid or irrational they may be. It is just me. Thanks for clarifying your, take care.
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Old 01-09-2012, 05:55 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,313 posts, read 3,883,950 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansarado View Post
Many of you self proclaimed atheists deride Christians, but do not even have the courage to take advantage of your situation, nor do you fully confide in your convictions.
I do see some logic on this in this sense. My observation is that there are atheists that address religion as being illogical, irrational, etc. but with such disdain for me to wonder why.
In other words, many of them are not up front and clear about their feelings.
Actually, what many of them are really reacting to what many religious zealots do out there and results in negative reactions.
I give respect to their views but not to their actions. I have not problem for them if they tell me homosexuality is a sin AS LONG AS THEY DO NOT TRY TO BAN IT. At that point I do take action and fight their actions.
I still do keep my emotional discipline when dealing with other religious people that do not act that way.
Atheist do have their zealots and "preach" preach their views on others just as their counterparts. They can deny it all they want but many of them are no different. They, just religiouse ones, believe that because they think they haver the "truth" they can judge others.
It may not be called religions but the indicators are just the same on both sides of the issue with those with the high horse attitude. Take care.
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Old 01-10-2012, 05:21 PM
 
16,631 posts, read 14,094,246 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo View Post
Thanks for the reply. You brought up an interesting point. You wrote "I do not care what people believe or have any interest in WHY they believe it because it all boils down to being irrational. Belief in something that cannot be proven is at its very core, NOT based on logic or reason."
I venture to guess that there have been you have acted or made decision with simply intuition with no evidence whatsoever.
I have no idea what you are trying to say here??

Quote:
Later you either were lucky and made the right call or fee stupid for doing so.
Are you trying to say that being impulsive for a single act is the same thing as being religious?

Really?

Making a bad choice is the same thing as having an religious belief based on fairytales?
Quote:
The same about religion. You may not see any logic in it. However, many people may see logic in it.
Ya, NO.

Logic is a philosophical methodology that at its very core is REPEATABLE (which is why it is frequently called a SCIENCE) and is not based on personal experience.

If someone cannot show the logic in religion, and so far all the believers in the word have not, then it is not based on "logic".

Quote:
Also, they may not have the answers but simply go by their intuition (call it faith if you want) and live their live based on it.
Fine but it isn't reason or LOGIC. It is completely made up and irrational to believe in something you cannot see, measure, or even prove exists. Which is why FAITH is required.

Quote:
Many of them do live very happy and productive lives. Also, many of them are highly educated in the sciences, have Phds in very scientific fields. To many of them there is no harm.
Many? There is clear, measurable correlation between education level and atheism. Basically the more intelligent or educated you are the more likely you are to be an atheist. Probably not causative but still interesting.

Second, your "idea" is a fundamentally logical fallacy. Just because some (not many) PhDs are believers does not mean anything. Should the fact that MOST illiterates are believers be used to show how "stupid" religion is? No.

Same for the "happiness" factor. Children believe wishing makes something happen. It makes them "happy" does that mean they should continue to believe that or should the move on to reality where they can actually work to get what they want?

Quote:
Now, I agree with you if someone comes to me trying to change my mind. However, to me there is a difference between trying to change my mind or simply sharing their views. Do you share things in your life with others?
Not of a religious nature no. Ever.

Quote:
I venture to say you do and that may include philosophical views.
You would be wrong. I never bring up my atheism EVER.

Quote:
What is wrong with that? Not with me. When you discuss issues here, is there not sharing your views? What is wrong if someone does the same but with religion.
Again, can't understand what you are trying to say.

Quote:
I have noticed that many people react very politely to others when they share political, social, or philosophical view. BUT, once someone does the very same thing but it is religion, heck no! It is OK to be a jerk.
Where did I say that? Seriously, please do not make things up.

Political views, or other views that are based on IGNORANCE or MADE UP, I will have exactly zero respect for. Ask that spirtiual person who wants to discuss things that go booga booga in the night. Equally full of made up crap as religious beliefs.

Quote:
Lastly, my personal view on that is that ALL views deserve respect as long as they are not imposed on me however stupid or irrational they may be. It is just me. Thanks for clarifying your, take care.
Hey you think you should respect beliefs like the right to molest children, beat women, subjugate other races, go ahead. But that belief of yours, makes me think very little of you.
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Old 01-10-2012, 05:56 PM
 
Location: Ohio
13,900 posts, read 10,796,204 times
Reputation: 7242
Quote:
Originally Posted by faabala View Post
There is something called common courtesy and manners. The way you act just reflects your character.
^^^^^This
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