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Old 01-13-2012, 06:50 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post

So yeah I think atheism is untenable, but I'm also deeply pleased/confident/etc to have a relationship to God. The most meaningful relationship I have. And if somehow I am wrong, and there is no God, I've still been a mostly happy person who's been better off than I'd be as one of you.
If God is real or not is a moot point. I know many Jesuit priests that are agnostic, but carry on. As I said before , the natural state of MAN should be agnosticism. Certainty about the existence of God is as illogical as certainty about the non-existence of God. This is where extreme ends of the spectrum becoming very much alike.
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Old 01-13-2012, 07:17 AM
Status: "It seems the Block has been taken off. Thank you" (set 23 hours ago)
 
Location: S. Wales.
42,597 posts, read 12,141,529 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
I do find atheism intolerable and years ago I lost interest in it. I'm also reaching that cut-off age, 35, when conversions and de-conversions become increasingly unlikely to occur.

Still if you think I "now must perceive (theism) has very little justification" than I guess I've been a bit too accommodating to atheism. I do not think theism is precisely scientific, or logically inevitable, but I never stated logical inevitability or science is the only source of Truth. That's more your perception, or close to it, than mine. I think theism is more satisfying and also more likely. If theism is wrong than, in many ways, I feel we can't ever know anything because humans are such unreliable foolish creatures. The weight of human history and experience makes theism likely to me. Although some science comes into it in that the Universe is extremely improbable so either there's some kind of God, there's some other Universe that created ours, or there's some higher realm that did so. Considering God has some basis beside conjecture it seems the best bet to me.

Now I admit some of what many of you say on the Bible shook me up a little, but my faith was never that dependent on the Bible. And some of what was said is based on "Resemblance means plagiarism" or "If I can't understand it it's because a crock", neither of which is that convincing when I get away from the computer for a bit.

So yeah I think atheism is untenable, but I'm also deeply pleased/confident/etc to have a relationship to God. The most meaningful relationship I have. And if somehow I am wrong, and there is no God, I've still been a mostly happy person who's been better off than I'd be as one of you.
Well, thanks for explaining, but if anything it suggests that your theism is of the more agnostic 'sortagod' variety than the Bible - based churchgoing variety, and I reckon its never too late to post an 'I have become agnostic.' thread.

If not that's fine and I note with pleasure the ever more perceptive posts you provide and I can be broad -minded about your jaundiced view of atheism.
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Old 01-13-2012, 07:20 AM
 
Location: Chicago
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Is Atheism a religious cult?
Sure, why not?
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Old 01-13-2012, 07:31 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
There are only three options to explain our existence, one is to believe in God, another is agnosticism which states their may be a God but I haven't found proof. The last is atheism where one will state they know God does not exist.
Fourth is that god was created by the same thing that created the universe. Fifth is that god was created after the start of the universe. Six is that god pre-exists but didn't create the universe. Seven is that several gods created the universe. Eight is that the universe was vomited out of the mouth of a multi-headed subspace dragon. Nine is that this universe was created by a god who then left it alone. And so on. When you're making up magical stories to fill in ignorance, don't see yourself short. And don't pretend that acting as if you're not sure is any different in practice from an atheist lacking belief.

Quote:
Agnosticism is where one admits that they do not know if God exists, not having the proof or that there is a personal God who has always existed.
Agnosticism is the dogmatic assertion that we can't know anything about god. It's just as much of a belief as anything else. Stop pretending it's somehow above the fray.
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Old 01-13-2012, 08:23 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
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Default Here's my reasoning!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
I am advocating agnosticism. You go on and on to say there is no God, but you cannot prove it. I suggest you become an agnostic and you will end up a much better scientist.

Our visible universe is 13.7 billion years old and to this day the explosion continues. We can go back to one millionth of a second before the big event (or bang). But cosmologist do not know where it came from. At the singularity the entire mass of the universe was inside the Planck length which is quite small. Quantum mechanics and relativity fall apart at that moment. I suggest you become an agnostic.
Well the trouble is, Julian, given such open-minedness, why don't you also become a believer in the FSM? (I trust you've heard of him? I mean, being totally open-minded, why not? At least his claims are potentially possible and not outrageous!)

The problem with the descriptors of the Abrahamic God is that they are easily proven to be so far off base as to strain even the most imaginative mind's ability to accept. The so-called miracles of Genesis, of Jesus' healing, of Noah's Ark, of an entire earth formed up a mere 6000 years ago (noting that, even if you don't buy it, so many do), that particular story line is just plain impossible, let alone improbable, and disjunct and contradictory.

So if I were to become an agnostic, I'd have to allow all sorts of conclusions. As well, how do we/you know & conclude that the BB was initiated by some God? Maybe, even if there is some "larger" entity, he/she/it may have just come along recently to see what all the kuh-fuh-phul is all about. Had no actual hand in it.

Why assume some higher entity is required? Why is that necessary?

At 64 years of age, after years (decades) of thought about this, and given my engineering, geology and biology education, thus knowing for a fact that there are active Evolutionary processes going on as we speak, to the incredibly ignorant and defiant refusals of fundy Christians, I choose to be at the least a level 6.8 (on Dawkins' 1-7 "Spectrum of Theistic Probability") atheist.

Spectrum of theistic probability - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yep; there may indeed be a God, but the evidence firmly says No to my mind. Keeping within the rational bounds of reason that is.

As in: I have personally decided not to waste any more mental hard-drive space to foolish imaginings. Until something far more convincing comes along than the dire fear-driven need of Christians for a secure after-life promise.

Tell me where I'm so very wrong, and how this error affects my objectivity in career science, rather than hindering it, because "You really shouldn't be asking those sorts of questions!" as my youth pastor acidly intoned at me once.
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Old 01-13-2012, 08:55 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
31,680 posts, read 32,492,916 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R.
I do find atheism intolerable and years ago I lost interest in it. I'm also reaching that cut-off age, 35, when conversions and de-conversions become increasingly unlikely to occur.
News to me....This is the first time I have heard that there is an age where one's mind becomes closed...
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Old 01-13-2012, 10:25 AM
 
10,864 posts, read 7,089,001 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
Spectrum of theistic probability - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yep; there may indeed be a God, but the evidence firmly says No to my mind. Keeping within the rational bounds of reason that is.

As in: I have personally decided not to waste any more mental hard-drive space to foolish imaginings. Until something far more convincing comes along than the dire fear-driven need of Christians for a secure after-life promise.

Tell me where I'm so very wrong, and how this error affects my objectivity in career science, rather than hindering it, because "You really shouldn't be asking those sorts of questions!" as my youth pastor acidly intoned at me once.
I saw the spectrum. If you are a 6 then you are technically an agnostic and not a strong atheist which is a 7. I have no issues with being a 6. I am in that category as well.

However, I have no issue with leaving a tiny window open for theism because it allows me to complete my humanity. I can fully enjoy the Ave Maria of Bach or Schubert by being a 6, but perhaps I would reject the music if I was a 7.

Last edited by Julian658; 01-13-2012 at 11:11 AM..
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Old 01-13-2012, 10:30 AM
 
4,047 posts, read 4,555,552 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
So yeah I think atheism is untenable, but I'm also deeply pleased/confident/etc to have a relationship to God. The most meaningful relationship I have. And if somehow I am wrong, and there is no God, I've still been a mostly happy person who's been better off than I'd be as one of you.
I don't understand how you can claim to have a meaningful relationship with something you don't even know exists.
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Old 01-13-2012, 10:52 AM
 
410 posts, read 657,708 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
So yeah I think atheism is untenable, but I'm also deeply pleased/confident/etc to have a relationship to God. The most meaningful relationship I have. And if somehow I am wrong, and there is no God, I've still been a mostly happy person who's been better off than I'd be as one of you.
I have had a very happy life, so how are you better off than me if god doesn't exist?
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Old 01-13-2012, 11:02 AM
 
Location: Texas
36,690 posts, read 20,250,539 times
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Default Is Atheism a religious cult?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Snippet:It looks a lot like the Nicene Creed

Interesting

Atheism is a religious cult in the same sense that capitalism is a capital letter.

Interesting how the religious tend to see the nonreligious in religious terms.
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