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Old 01-11-2012, 12:16 PM
 
39,026 posts, read 10,819,276 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Do Atheists Need a Church of Their Own? -- New York Magazine

Sounds like a church meeting where members with the same belief system get together for fellowship.
It's a problem which we need to address - like how to treat women who come to meetings, because, if we don't behave better than Christians, we can expect to hear plenty about it.

I don't myself feel any need to attend a humanist church where people sing non - religious hymns and make affirmations of non - faith led by some guy in a non - religious funny hat.

If councils and meetings to discuss strategy, social implications and related worldviews are seen as theists by indicating a Church in the making, let them.

Even if it was, it would be based on fact, not faith.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post



I have have to add that a tiny minority of Atheists can be very intolerant of religion. In this sense they can be similar to some Evangelist Christians and their narrow views.
But the important difference is their views are soundly based and the religious views are based on faith, and another difference is that, if and when religious superstition vanishes from the world, so will the need for atheists to spend a single minute of their lives countering it.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 01-11-2012 at 12:23 PM.. Reason: 'Treat' not 'teat'.
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Old 01-11-2012, 12:53 PM
 
164 posts, read 160,899 times
Reputation: 90
I don't see how it wouldn't be.

If you're an atheist, you believe there is no God. You are making a claim that you can't prove. You believe that existance was formed out of non-existance.

If you're a Christian, you believe there is a God. You are making a claim that you can't prove. You believe that existance was formed by a Creator.

An agnostic believes in the possibility of both.

So in that regard, I can see how atheism can be considered a religion or a cult.
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Old 01-11-2012, 01:08 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 11,368,316 times
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Cool Statements of dubious validity!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Saying I believe there is no God is basically a belief system and no different than saying I believe there is a God. Nevertheless, your explanation regarding "BELIEVE" is quite elegant.
Quite wrong, in fact, but others have explained & defined this for you. I do hope your level of personal understanding improves with that!

There seems to be a persistent desire and distant drumbeat by theists to make atheism out to be a belief or "religion", even though it lacks ALL of the necessary key elements of such. I wonder why?

Perhaps it's to denigrate it to the same level as ancient outdated belief systems based entirely on debunked and well-refuted old fairy tales, like the Greater Christian Mythology? so that, in essence, our very logical arguments against that outdated myth can also be applied with equanimity against atheism?

Hardly in the same category, even if atheism were an organized structured "religion". You see, we go out and predict, hypothesize, measure, test, re-test several times, go to peer-review to expose possible forgeries or bad experimental design, re-do the research, and then provide constructive criticisms for future research to unravel remnant mysteries.

Then, and only then, do we scientists provide limited and conservative deductions. Absent any arm-waving and hysterical calls out into the room, falling down onto already bruised knees and caterwalling in the aisles. Never seen that in any Science Dept at ANY university, 'cepting, possibly, the Greater Outback Church of the Ranting Kangaroo down under.

Le's compare the step-wise scientific process to fundamentalist Christian beliefs and statements, shall we? No; then again, prob'ly better not to do that, huh? Could be kinda embarrassing for the religious defenders.....

Where science has categorically and relentlessly re-defined and explained the many once-inexplicable natural events of "Ye Olde GoatHerder Days", it's astounding that a modern, supposedly logical and Western-educated individual can still cling to, with wholesome denial of all the other facts, these once established "truths". Lightning, hurricanes and tsunamis & earthquakes as being God's way of talking to us simply because they are both "awesome" and "outside of our mortal control!!", and so on ad absurdium.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
While it may look like something with a lot of clarity, it is basically meaningless. By definition, an atheist is a person who does not believe in any gods. Everything else said on the subject is optional for each and every atheist. They have nothing else in common. No creed. No worldview. No philosophy. Nothing.
Agreed. While there is some commonality in a realization of the essential truths derived from ongoing scientific investigation & revelation, there are many non-scientist atheists who simply let common sense prevail. And who don't need the philosophical & spiritual boost of a faith-based default belief system, and no "life after death" reassurances, no matter how indefensible and illogical. Oh, and unprovable & undocumented, ever, despite having had literally centuries of time to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Making a joke during a debate is a very good tactic.
Yup. That and going to an insulting & combative ad-hominem rail against "all atheists" or simply those who diligently argue for atheism, after a resisting debater has been thoroughly cornered by persistent and inarguable logic.
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Old 01-11-2012, 01:29 PM
 
9,751 posts, read 6,721,123 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
Quite wrong, in fact, but others have explained & defined this for you. I do hope your level of personal understanding improves with that!

There seems to be a persistent desire and distant drumbeat by theists to make atheism out to be a belief or "religion", even though it lacks ALL of the necessary key elements of such. I wonder why?

I am advocating agnosticism. You go on and on to say there is no God, but you cannot prove it. I suggest you become an agnostic and you will end up a much better scientist.

Our visible universe is 13.7 billion years old and to this day the explosion continues. We can go back to one millionth of a second before the big event (or bang). But cosmologist do not know where it came from. At the singularity the entire mass of the universe was inside the Planck length which is quite small. Quantum mechanics and relativity fall apart at that moment. I suggest you become an agnostic.
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Old 01-11-2012, 01:41 PM
 
Location: WV and Eastport, ME
11,174 posts, read 10,991,690 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Making a joke during a debate is a very good tactic.
A person might as well make a joke. There is no way to make sense out of your attempts to place beliefs into the minds of people who don't want them and have no use for them. There really is nothing to debate.
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Old 01-11-2012, 01:46 PM
 
Location: WV and Eastport, ME
11,174 posts, read 10,991,690 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
Clearly that's the way it should be, but it seems too many "atheists" actually want some god-free "religion" in their lives and keep comming up with garbage like "atheist creeds" or atheist clubs that meet on Sunday, hold hands and bond around their mutual non-belief.

Anyone who builds their entire life around their theist OR atheistic beliefs is living a sadly shallow and small-minded existence.
Are any of those here reading this forum? I'll not argue whether some of that type of person exists. The problem I see is that people keep making blanket statements about atheists that are not valid.
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Old 01-11-2012, 01:48 PM
 
Location: WV and Eastport, ME
11,174 posts, read 10,991,690 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post



I have have to add that a tiny minority of Atheists can be very intolerant of religion. In this sense they can be similar to some Evangelist Christians and their narrow views.
OK. Certainly, a small minority should not be the definition for a whole non-group of people.
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Old 01-11-2012, 01:52 PM
 
Location: WV and Eastport, ME
11,174 posts, read 10,991,690 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansarado View Post
I don't see how it wouldn't be.

If you're an atheist, you believe there is no God. You are making a claim that you can't prove. You believe that existance was formed out of non-existance.

If you're a Christian, you believe there is a God. You are making a claim that you can't prove. You believe that existance was formed by a Creator.

An agnostic believes in the possibility of both.

So in that regard, I can see how atheism can be considered a religion or a cult.
It is not the negative claim that is tested for truth or validity. In other words, you can't prove a negative. Every time somebody posts that atheists are making a claim they can't prove, it is meaningless. Their position is the negative one and is not subject to being tested for truth.
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Old 01-11-2012, 01:54 PM
 
Location: WV and Eastport, ME
11,174 posts, read 10,991,690 times
Reputation: 7412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
I am advocating agnosticism. You go on and on to say there is no God, but you cannot prove it. I suggest you become an agnostic and you will end up a much better scientist.

Our visible universe is 13.7 billion years old and to this day the explosion continues. We can go back to one millionth of a second before the big event (or bang). But cosmologist do not know where it came from. At the singularity the entire mass of the universe was inside the Planck length which is quite small. Quantum mechanics and relativity fall apart at that moment. I suggest you become an agnostic.
Of course not. The requirement for proof is on the other side of the argument.
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Old 01-11-2012, 02:01 PM
 
164 posts, read 160,899 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
It is not the negative claim that is tested for truth or validity. In other words, you can't prove a negative. Every time somebody posts that atheists are making a claim they can't prove, it is meaningless. Their position is the negative one and is not subject to being tested for truth.
Wat?

Let's say I don't believe that there are certain electromagnetic waves that exist because I cannot sense them.

Someone else claims they do exist, but cannot sense them either.

Let's say they do exist, but the technology available for detecting them does not exist.

Is the negative claim true even though it has been proven otherwise?

Since, I assume you're speaking from a philosphical standpoint, I'll change it into a positive so it fits your protocol.

An atheist believes that nothing created something. You must prove that something came from nothing.

There is no way to prove this with current technology. I am still making an assertion that nothing caused everything when in fact everything exists, so can you prove to me that nothing at one time existed?
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