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Old 01-12-2012, 11:27 AM
 
Location: Sitting on a bar stool. Guinness in hand.
4,429 posts, read 5,673,793 times
Reputation: 1698

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
It looks a lot like the Nicene Creed

Interesting



Quote:
Quote:
An Atheist's Creed
I believe in a purely material universe that conforms to naturalistic laws and principles.
Ok I think atheists could agree on this in general.

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I believe that the life we have is the only one we will have, that the mind and consciousness are inseparable from the brain, that we cease to exist in any conscious form when we die, and that it is therefore incumbent on us to enable each person to live their one life to the fullest.
What is the definition of Fullest in this case? And what is the evidence all atheist want such a thing to happen?

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I believe in the power of science and reason and rationality to further deepen our understanding of everything around us and to eventually overcome superstition and erase the petty divisions sown by religion, race, ethnicity, and nationality.
Who say all atheists believe that science and rationality will eventually (with certainty) erase petty divisions of race ethnicity and nationality? Where is there proof of this?
Also who say all/most atheists are all about peace/love/equality. Perhaps some like the exact opposite because it makes it easier to make personal political/Financial gains. Not all atheists have good intentions. I think the weakest part in that whole statement probably is the comment of not believing in nationalism. I don't believe for a second that all atheists want to be "world" citizens. I think it more likely that they like the general culture/political of country they currently live in. And are proud to be whatever nationality they are.

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I am in awe of the beauty, vastness, and complexity of nature and the universe, and the fact that all arose purely by the working of natural laws.
We agree that it arose from purely natural laws. And probably agree on the complexity and vastness on it as well.
But are all atheists awed by the beauty of nature and the universe?

Some would say yes for sure. But some would fit that stereotypical "the cold and hard reality of life" that is often used to also make a blanket description of all atheist’s "beliefs."


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I believe in the power of ideals such as peace and justice and shared humanity to inspire us to create a free and just world.
See comment 3.

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I believe in kindness, love, and the human spirit and their ability to overcome challenges and adversity and to create a better world.
see comment 3.

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I believe in the necessity for credible and objective evidence to sustain any belief and thus deny, because of the absence of such evidence, the existence of each and every aspect of the supernatural.
Ok. I could see how atheists could agree on this.

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I refuse to bow, prostrate myself, or otherwise cower before the deities of any religion.
Ok again.

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I am neither tempted by the fiction of heaven or any other form of eternal life nor fearful of the fiction of hell.
Well. I can say that I'm tempted by the possibility of enteral life. Just not through metaphysical means. The possibility of one day being able to store ones memories/personality/etc. (basically everything that I believes makes you an intellegent/ sentient being) in a computer a perhaps living on (in a sense) in a cyber world that perhaps could last or even outlast our known universe. I'm not saying it will happen. But I can’t say the temptation is not there.

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I choose to live the dignified and exhilarating life of a free-thinker, able to go wherever knowledge and curiosity takes me, without fear of contradicting any dogma.
Who says that a particular atheist is looking either for a dignified or exhilarating life? Everyone is different. Perhaps a particular atheist wants to drink all day and sleep around with other guy/gals husbands/wives/etc. Maybe do some Illegal gambling (dependent on state) in the middle of it. Or perhaps an atheists just wants to go to work come home watch some TV and then go to bed and basically just live a nice boring life.
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Old 01-12-2012, 12:00 PM
 
Location: Ohio
19,949 posts, read 14,256,616 times
Reputation: 16129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
The concept of God allows for reconciling of certain issues and questions.
For the frightened and the ignorant and for those who cannot accept reality.

Reconciling....

Mircea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
I see your point, but there are other Atheists that give you and others a bad name because they treat atheism as a religion.
And what, you're shocked because someone took an idea and perverted it?

How long have you been on this Planet?

It's called the Politics of Power. That's why you'll never see an end to the abortion/anti-abortion conflict. Neither side truly wants it to end. Why? Because then there are no more press conferences, book signings, interviews with newspapers, magazines or television, no more web-sites, blogging or tweeting, no more marches and parades and demonstrations, no more group meetings or news letters...

What are those people to do without that? Their lives would be empty and meaningless. That's what they live for, as is the case for all issue. Same with "homelessness." Advocates don't actually want it to end, for the exact same reasons: no more marches, demonstrations, speaking engagements, rallies, group protests at city hall, the State capital, DC, no more newsletters, websites, blogs, tweets, etc etc and worst of all, no more money. It's a $60 Billion a year industry, and guess who profits the most?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
I am advocating agnosticism. You go on and on to say there is no God, but you cannot prove it.
Of course I can prove it. In retrospect, I've proved it every single day of my life.

I can prove that all religious based gods are human constructs; often based on misinterpretations of older texts, like the Judeo-Christian god as an example.

That would leave only the agnostic vision of god; which is something that you could never comprehend (since that is the definition of agnostic).

What has the agnostic god ever done for me? Nothing. What role does the agnostic god play in my life? None. What will the agnostic god ever do for me? Nothing. What role did the agnostic god play in the Universe, Earth, life on Earth? None.

So, then, what's the point?

The agnostic god is equal to Yahweh, who has all the power of the Great Pumpkin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
But cosmologist do not know where it came from.
That is neither proof of a god, nor a reason to believe that a god exists.

At one point, we didn't know where children came from. The great visionary and brilliant thinker Aristotle said children came by way of spontaneous regeneration.

Yeah, that's right, they couldn't even connect the act of sex with reproduction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
At the singularity the entire mass of the universe was inside the Planck length which is quite small. Quantum mechanics and relativity fall apart at that moment. I suggest you become an agnostic.
Assuming their theory is correct.

Throwing god under the bus...

Mircea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansarado View Post
Let's say I don't believe that there are certain electromagnetic waves that exist because I cannot sense them.

Someone else claims they do exist, but cannot sense them either.

Let's say they do exist, but the technology available for detecting them does not exist.

Is the negative claim true even though it has been proven otherwise?
That's a classic Strawman.

Those electromagnetic waves are interacting with you and your environment and affecting them, and that is how you're able to prove their existence ultimately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansarado View Post
An atheist believes that nothing created something. You must prove that something came from nothing.
That's an illogical argument. Why do you automatically assume that something created something? Because your limited thinking and lack of knowledge doesn't permit you to see any alternatives.

Even if something created something, that is not proof a god-thing created it. It isn't even proof that intelligent life created it. If I mix hydrochloric acid with sodium hydroxide, I get H20 and NaCl (water and table salt).

You're suggesting an intelligent being created the water and salt? No, it was a chemical reaction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansarado View Post
so can you prove to me that nothing at one time existed?
Perhaps it always existed.

What is the mass of god (in kilograms or tons)?

Happy being an atheist....


Mircea
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Old 01-12-2012, 12:37 PM
 
224 posts, read 591,448 times
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Atheism is as much a religous cult, as people not collecting stamps is a hobby cult.
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Old 01-12-2012, 12:50 PM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
13,143 posts, read 19,212,032 times
Reputation: 14007
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDanishGuy View Post
Atheism is as much a religous cult, as people not collecting stamps is a hobby cult.
Here's a good argument against that, just for fun...

Why a Non-Stamp Collecting Club Makes Sense « Philosophical Multicore
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Old 01-12-2012, 02:55 PM
 
Location: 30-40°N 90-100°W
13,856 posts, read 22,985,014 times
Reputation: 6688
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
For the frightened and the ignorant and for those who cannot accept reality.
Many of the priests I've known are almost certainly as educated as you.

Still I suppose no one knows everything so we're all ignorant on something. Theism at least gives the hope of some day not being ignorant, atheism inherently denies that's even possible. By definition as an atheist you will always and forever be ignorant of most things. You will always be limited to what you can learn in, at most, 122 years. Which means you'll always be limited to like .00000000000000000000001% of the Universe at most. So most things in the Universe you will always be ignorant of no matter how well-read you become. It's quite probable the big questions, like reconciling Quantum Mechanics with Relativity or the Unsolved Problems of Mathematics, will forever be out of your reach.

And fear is a natural emotion necessary to avoid certain threats. As an atheist you believe in a Universe where much is hostile to life, children cease to exist without ever knowing happiness, the environment is degrading, religious people threaten to force rules on you you feel are wrong, etc. If you're never frightened maybe you're just not paying attention.

As for accepting reality I'm skeptical you completely know reality any better than I. Or that you never tell yourself anything to comfort yourself. Maybe you don't, but what a cold and austere image that evokes.

Still I guess I'm agreeing. We're frightened, ignorant, and not accepting reality. We have hopes for more than that someday. Maybe those hopes are a crock, but I find it more satisfying than a lifetime of ignorance and fear followed by everyone (good or bad) entering the same oblivion.
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Old 01-12-2012, 04:17 PM
 
40,103 posts, read 26,772,494 times
Reputation: 6050
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
Here's a good argument against that, just for fun...

Why a Non-Stamp Collecting Club Makes Sense « Philosophical Multicore
I love it. Perfect rebuttal to that tired cliche'.
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Old 01-12-2012, 06:04 PM
 
9,877 posts, read 6,747,934 times
Reputation: 2487
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
Many of the priests I've known are almost certainly as educated as you.

Still I suppose no one knows everything so we're all ignorant on something. Theism at least gives the hope of some day not being ignorant, atheism inherently denies that's even possible. By definition as an atheist you will always and forever be ignorant of most things. You will always be limited to what you can learn in, at most, 122 years. Which means you'll always be limited to like .00000000000000000000001% of the Universe at most. So most things in the Universe you will always be ignorant of no matter how well-read you become. It's quite probable the big questions, like reconciling Quantum Mechanics with Relativity or the Unsolved Problems of Mathematics, will forever be out of your reach.

And fear is a natural emotion necessary to avoid certain threats. As an atheist you believe in a Universe where much is hostile to life, children cease to exist without ever knowing happiness, the environment is degrading, religious people threaten to force rules on you you feel are wrong, etc. If you're never frightened maybe you're just not paying attention.

As for accepting reality I'm skeptical you completely know reality any better than I. Or that you never tell yourself anything to comfort yourself. Maybe you don't, but what a cold and austere image that evokes.

Still I guess I'm agreeing. We're frightened, ignorant, and not accepting reality. We have hopes for more than that someday. Maybe those hopes are a crock, but I find it more satisfying than a lifetime of ignorance and fear followed by everyone (good or bad) entering the same oblivion.

Agnostic theists have the best of both worlds.
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Old 01-12-2012, 06:08 PM
 
9,877 posts, read 6,747,934 times
Reputation: 2487
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
Here's a good argument against that, just for fun...

Why a Non-Stamp Collecting Club Makes Sense « Philosophical Multicore
I don't have issues with calm atheists that do not try to preach atheism to others with websites, creeds, TV shows, Atheistic churches, etc, etc. As I said i am agnostic, so we are quite close. The only difference is a bit of an open mind regarding the unknown.
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Old 01-12-2012, 08:59 PM
 
39,205 posts, read 10,887,543 times
Reputation: 5096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
Many of the priests I've known are almost certainly as educated as you.

Still I suppose no one knows everything so we're all ignorant on something. Theism at least gives the hope of some day not being ignorant, atheism inherently denies that's even possible. By definition as an atheist you will always and forever be ignorant of most things. You will always be limited to what you can learn in, at most, 122 years. Which means you'll always be limited to like .00000000000000000000001% of the Universe at most. So most things in the Universe you will always be ignorant of no matter how well-read you become. It's quite probable the big questions, like reconciling Quantum Mechanics with Relativity or the Unsolved Problems of Mathematics, will forever be out of your reach.

And fear is a natural emotion necessary to avoid certain threats. As an atheist you believe in a Universe where much is hostile to life, children cease to exist without ever knowing happiness, the environment is degrading, religious people threaten to force rules on you you feel are wrong, etc. If you're never frightened maybe you're just not paying attention.

As for accepting reality I'm skeptical you completely know reality any better than I. Or that you never tell yourself anything to comfort yourself. Maybe you don't, but what a cold and austere image that evokes.

Still I guess I'm agreeing. We're frightened, ignorant, and not accepting reality. We have hopes for more than that someday. Maybe those hopes are a crock, but I find it more satisfying than a lifetime of ignorance and fear followed by everyone (good or bad) entering the same oblivion.
It's still rather sad that you are justifying adherence to a theism that I think you now must perceive has very little justification by making atheism look cold, miserable an nihilistic. Al it does it remove comfy delusion. Much is actually hostile to life, children often do cease to exist without ever knowing happiness and theism recognises this as much as anyone.

While I wouldn't claim that we know reality any better than the theists, I would claim that we avoid buying into unreality and that, to answer Julian's point above, is why it beats agnostic theism. Agnostic theism, by definition, is believing what is not known to be true. How is that open - minded?
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Old 01-13-2012, 12:04 AM
 
Location: 30-40°N 90-100°W
13,856 posts, read 22,985,014 times
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I do find atheism intolerable and years ago I lost interest in it. I'm also reaching that cut-off age, 35, when conversions and de-conversions become increasingly unlikely to occur.

Still if you think I "now must perceive (theism) has very little justification" than I guess I've been a bit too accommodating to atheism. I do not think theism is precisely scientific, or logically inevitable, but I never stated logical inevitability or science is the only source of Truth. That's more your perception, or close to it, than mine. I think theism is more satisfying and also more likely. If theism is wrong than, in many ways, I feel we can't ever know anything because humans are such unreliable foolish creatures. The weight of human history and experience makes theism likely to me. Although some science comes into it in that the Universe is extremely improbable so either there's some kind of God, there's some other Universe that created ours, or there's some higher realm that did so. Considering God has some basis beside conjecture it seems the best bet to me.

Now I admit some of what many of you say on the Bible shook me up a little, but my faith was never that dependent on the Bible. And some of what was said is based on "Resemblance means plagiarism" or "If I can't understand it it's because a crock", neither of which is that convincing when I get away from the computer for a bit.

So yeah I think atheism is untenable, but I'm also deeply pleased/confident/etc to have a relationship to God. The most meaningful relationship I have. And if somehow I am wrong, and there is no God, I've still been a mostly happy person who's been better off than I'd be as one of you.
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