Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R.
God isn't really the same as a tooth-fairy or as something you dreamed up one Saturday morning.
For one "God" is a word that can mean far more different things than "tooth fairy."
Some kind of God/High-God exists in many or maybe most cultures. In 2003 a Gallup Poll indicated around a third of the US's people say they have had a "religious or mystical experience" and this was higher than the percent who said that in 1962.
Religious Awakenings Bolster Americans' Faith
The concept of God allows for reconciling of certain issues and questions..
None of this means there must be a God, but at the very least I think it does mean God is more meaningful a concept than tooth-fairies or some purple dragon you invent. It does at least say something about what humans need or think they need. IOW I think it makes sense to treat it the way I'd like to think I treat Vishnu or the Jade Emperor or whatever. |
It is certainly true that 'God' gets applied to a lot of things and we have to assess, essentially, different claims,
A personal God - claim (Biblegod, Hindu Gods)
An anthropomorphic god of everyone (agnostic-god, perhaps)
A First cause creator, Deistgod or pantheist God
'God' as an explanation for the feelings we get when he meditate, all cheer and sing together, look at a sunset or talk to ourselves.
Each of those had different supporting evidence and the common thnig is that each (if it can be made to look reasonable) can be linked to the personal God one wishes to validate.
However, at best we have real phenomena which often turn out to have other explanations, claims based on using 'God' as a stopgap explanation for unanswered questions an stories or claims which appear to have a strong mythological element which don't stand up too well under scrutiny.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658
It is not logical to have that certainty. It gives you a narrow mindset. The agnostic is more open minded.
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The avowed 'agnostic', I think you will find, shares the atheist certainty in rejecting the god -claims of the various religions. As to some sortagod, we are no more and no less agnostic than they are. We just have the more logical (and possibly open - minded) position of not believing in what we do not know whereas they tend to half -believe in it.
I believe you lose that particular round Julian, though you won't admit it, of course.
To both of you,: comparison of the Spaghetti monster, pink Unicorn or Tooth fairy tends to irritate the believer since (as a caller in to Austin Atheists found himself saying) 'But those things are all myths' whereas God' has a lot more going for it. A history, personal experience, miracles, a panoply of Theologians, religious leaders, charismatic preachers, writers and artists who used their art to celebrate the claims of that religion. What has the Tooth Fairy - or even santa, got to compare?
But that's not really the point. All that says is that a lot of people have believed it for a long time. Longer even than the greek gods, almost as long as the Egyptian gods, though not as long as the Hindu gods of course. But we are certain that they are not real, either.
We could use the Egyptian, Roman or Norse gods and sometimes do, but then the theists can say 'They are dead. No-one believes in them any more'. Which is actually irrelevant, but sounds good. About Living gods, they are of course, personal experience of the true God, but none of them perceive Him in the right way. That is quite clever and when push comes to shove, the Muslim and Christian apologists will drop their damning of each other to a fiery hell to stand together against the atheist with a stout declaration that it is indeed all the same god.
So we are really stuck with the mythical constructs in which no theists seriously believe or would dream of equating with their own god and which yet have some currency in popular imagination. The point being that there is really no more sound evidence for any of the personal gods than there is for any of those Easter bunnies, leprechauns or bogeymen, and the fact that nobody has been making a living out of promoting their reality (well, Santa come close) is really not the point.
I think or hope that clarifies the points you both raise and the result is that not believing in Santa is not a cult or a religion. It is no more than not joining one.
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