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Old 01-14-2012, 09:07 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
"No creeds, rules or limitations of how or what we are allowed to think" could describe certain forms of madness as well.
But far superior than being told what to think
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Old 01-14-2012, 09:18 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yzette View Post
Not only do I believe humanity is capable of doing such great things without the help of an imaginary deity, I believe humanity is capable of doing such great things in spite of the obstacles thrown up by those who believe in such deities.
But too often the willful ignorance of ancient superstition is such an obstacle that strides forward are delayed, diluted or simply abandoned. There is no greater danger than willful ignorance.

Every person alive today was educated when we knew that the earth was billions of years old, yet we have untold numbers of the willfully ignorant that think it is measured in the thousands. You can't get much more willful in your ignorance than that.
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Old 01-14-2012, 11:27 AM
 
Location: Dallas,Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yzette View Post
Do your evangelical Christians try to blur that line as much as ours? Do you have anti-abortion crusaders bombing clinics in the name of their religion and trying to turn their religion into the law of the land?

Is there a debate about whether to teach "Intelligent Design" in your public schools?

Do you have religious fundamentalists blathering on about the sanctity of marriage and trying to institutionalize discrimination against homosexuals?

Are your politicians willing to listen to the fundamentalists and give the fundamentalists power over everything from health care to education?

Do you have people like this idiot running for Prime Minister? And are they actually taken seriously enough to raise money for their campaigns?



Serious questions. I have a friend who is married to a Swede, but that's the extent of my exposure to your country. From what she tells me, it's very conformist there. Maybe your Christian holidays are just an example of conformity by the masses, a way of taking the path of least resistance. And maybe your atheists have the luxury of going along with it because your Christians don't behave like some of ours do. If your fundamentalists do behave like ours, maybe they get written off and ignored for the extremists they are, instead of being given power in a government in a nation that claims to hold dear the concept of separation of church and state.

Great post Yzette! All valid points in my opinion.
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Old 01-15-2012, 08:38 AM
 
1,809 posts, read 3,110,620 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
Honestly, it's probably because religion in Europe does not have nearly the reach and effect upon those societies as it does here and therefore doesn't have the "opportunity" to personally offended so many people.

If you look, you'll find most rabid atheists were somewhow wronged by religion (some more literally than others) and feel they need to fight against the source of those perceived wrongs. That makes 'em especially loud.
In Spain (my country), our former fascist regime had very close associations with the Catholic Church. In fact, it labeled itself "National-Catholic". The Church's behaviour while Francoism lasted was disgusting, when not downright criminal. Nowadays, they keep making the mistake of constantly wanting to politically indoctrinate believers. While I'm far from anti-theist, so to speak, being more of a "live and let live" kind of person (what others believe is none of my business), I'm glad every time that laws are passed that make it clear that they're not in power anymore.

However, I'd say that most people here (especially most progressive people, myself included) blame only the Church's bureaucrats (including those currently in Rome) and not religion per se. It helps that many Spanish jesuit priests and theologians have been progressive thinkers and actually meant to help people living in poverty or political repression when dictatorships were fiercely widespread in Latin America, same as they did when they were preaching and converting people in colonial America (the movie The Mission dealt with this). Ignacio Ellacuría, for instance, was a Basque "liberation theologian" ( Liberation theology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) who was murdered by the army in Salvador.

When Pope John Paul II died, I thought there was a great chance to change things a bit. If Carlo Maria Martini had been elected the new Pope, while not being a revolutionary figure at all, at least I'd have felt some slight hope that Rome intended to change, if only to reach more sorts of people (which means more power and money). But alas, they decided to choose an even more conservative Pope. Since less and less Europeans believe these days, and this trend will extend to developing nations as their education systems improve, it's their (the Vatican's) loss and not ours.
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Old 01-15-2012, 12:24 PM
 
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It's as well to bear in mind what a positive force the churches and indeed, any religion can be. While we atheists explain that the business of atheism is not charitable work (though many do it on an individual basis) the amount of effort the churches put into it is to be praised.

I think that, if the churches would drop the claim factual veracity and accept that their beliefs are pretty much faith - based and if they would stop interfering in other areas and especially drop the occasional efforts to take issue with the findings of science because they seem to disagree with some faith - claims, then we could co -exist more amicably.

I have seen some believers get pretty ratty with those who don't give the Bible undue credit or play the old fallacies of 'science doesn't know everything', 'have you looked everywhere in the Universe' and 'atheists claim total knowledge'. On the other hand, I have seen Dawkins get unduly aggressive about a possible god behind evolution, which I agree is not logical but he could have been a bit more understanding.
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Old 01-15-2012, 01:11 PM
 
Location: texas
3,059 posts, read 3,228,679 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lille Ida View Post
Being from Scandinavia - Norway, Sweden and Denmark are among the most secular western nations in the world. We have large number of Atheists/Agnostics with religious people being the minority. However, our holidays and culture are still Christian. Most of our national holidays are religious Christian with few secular ones'.

Despite us having very large nonbelievers population, we are never against the religious people. Sweden also has separation of church and state.

Our public schools still teaches religion, and on some high holidays many schools take students to churches. On St. Lucia's Day, students sing also about Jesus Christ. Many schools also teaches bible lessons after class if students are interested.

From what I've seen and read, it seems like Atheists in the U.S. are very Anti-religion. They try to take away all religious things in America, despite the U.S. having 80% Christians and only 1.6% Atheists/Agnostics. Yes, around 16% are Non-religious but that does not mean they don't believe in God, they are just not members of any religious places. So America could be considered a religious nation.

Why not leave religious people alone and let them keep or make religion in the U.S. as much as possible.... ignore and laugh at them (My tips).
Yes, I understand it could be annoying when religious people get mad and angry at nonbelievers, but if you guys ignore them then they wouldn't say anything hopefully. In Scandinavia I never heard any fight between religious and non-religious people at all, maybe because us non-believers don't care what they do in our country, because we like Christian holidays and culture.

Ever heard the term, "Ugly American"? Think that applies here as is many other cases........
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Old 01-15-2012, 01:43 PM
 
9,769 posts, read 6,727,874 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noela View Post
In Spain (my country), our former fascist regime had very close associations with the Catholic Church. In fact, it labeled itself "National-Catholic". The Church's behaviour while Francoism lasted was disgusting, when not downright criminal. Nowadays, they keep making the mistake of constantly wanting to politically indoctrinate believers. While I'm far from anti-theist, so to speak, being more of a "live and let live" kind of person (what others believe is none of my business), I'm glad every time that laws are passed that make it clear that they're not in power anymore.

However, I'd say that most people here (especially most progressive people, myself included) blame only the Church's bureaucrats (including those currently in Rome) and not religion per se. It helps that many Spanish jesuit priests and theologians have been progressive thinkers and actually meant to help people living in poverty or political repression when dictatorships were fiercely widespread in Latin America, same as they did when they were preaching and converting people in colonial America (the movie The Mission dealt with this). Ignacio Ellacuría, for instance, was a Basque "liberation theologian" ( Liberation theology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) who was murdered by the army in Salvador.

When Pope John Paul II died, I thought there was a great chance to change things a bit. If Carlo Maria Martini had been elected the new Pope, while not being a revolutionary figure at all, at least I'd have felt some slight hope that Rome intended to change, if only to reach more sorts of people (which means more power and money). But alas, they decided to choose an even more conservative Pope. Since less and less Europeans believe these days, and this trend will extend to developing nations as their education systems improve, it's their (the Vatican's) loss and not ours.
¡De acuerdo!
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Old 01-15-2012, 01:50 PM
 
Location: Vermont
10,307 posts, read 11,221,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by looking4answers12 View Post
How private of a matter do you think religion should be?
I do get the concerns of atheists not wanting certain laws to be based on religions beliefs and I understand people who feel the need to stand up against those things. But still, I wonder about the question I posted above.
I don't really understand what you are asking. Everybody who has any religious or nonreligious is entitled to get together with any number of people who share their views. They can have meetings on Sundays or any other day of the week, they can talk about whatever they want, they can try to get anyone else to believe what they believe, and they can pretty much do whatever they want.
They cannot, consistent with the Constitution, get the government to help them convert people, to favor their beliefs over the beliefs of others, even people who have no religious beliefs, or to use government to support or subsidize their activities.

Atheists do not try to silence religious people or drive them out of the "public square ",but we do object to the government trying to favor any religion or to indoctrinate children into any religious beliefs.

Is this responsive to your question?
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Old 01-15-2012, 05:47 PM
 
Location: New York City
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Well, I live in New York City so I really don't have much gripes with religions folks in this relatively "open," large, cosmopolitan City. I also lived in South Florida for 21 years and religious folks, while around, did not have much pull down there. In fact, cities like Wilton Manors had/has a thriving gay population. There is some religious outcry here and there even from a former mayor, but they are usually ignored.

But I do have ONE big problem here in New York with religious institutions, namely churches. Anyone who knows the traffic and parking situation in this city know that it is pure madness. Well, I traverse this city do my job and I see churches, middle of the week, middle of the day/night with nothing going on with huge swaths of parking space lined in front of them with signs stating:

"No Parking Anytime"

So folks like me, coming in from a long day or from a long road trip at midnight, looking for parking in MY neighborhood, can't park in front of some huge church because the space is designated for drop offs and in some cases, the pastor, supposedly even on days or hours when NOTHING is going on at the church. Personally I see it as a racket.
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Old 01-15-2012, 06:01 PM
 
Location: Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yzette View Post
Serious questions. I have a friend who is married to a Swede, but that's the extent of my exposure to your country. From what she tells me, it's very conformist there. Maybe your Christian holidays are just an example of conformity by the masses, a way of taking the path of least resistance.
These types of comparisons, which are unfortunately very common on C-D and elsewhere ignore one very important fact, and that is the status of the society.

Scandinavian countries, are, by definition, nation-States.

A nation is any group of people who share the same language, alphabet, religion, and cultural history.

The Serbs are a nation, but Serbia is not a nation-State, because living in Serbia in addition to the Serbs are nations of Magyars, Germans, Jews, Romanians, Vlachs (Ara-Romanians), Roma (Tsigani), Bulgars, Croats and a few others. And all of those nations have their own language, alphabet, religion, culture, customs and shared history. Yes, the Croats and Serbs are very similar in many respects, and they speak Serbo-Croat, but the Serbs use the Cyrillic Alphabet, while the Croats use the Western Alphabet.

Sweden, Denmark and Norway are nation-States, because there is cultural homogeneity in language, alphabet, religion, culture, customs and history. And in a homogenous society, there is a tremendous amount of societal pressure to conform, and that is why Fascism lends itself so well to nation-States.

It was in part that very same societal pressure that allowed one person to manipulate it and bring Germans against small minority groups like Jews and Roma.

The first week on the job, and people are asking if I go to church. Well, that's none of their business. And then I suspect that since my cubicle wasn't decorated with the appropriate accouterments expressing a desire to don a Tupa and sing, "Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lamb!" for all Eternity in the Dictatorship of Jesus Christ, they tried to pin me down by asking which church I go to.

Again, that's none of their business. And this kind of hostility naturally results in many of the not-so-religious and agnostics and atheists lashing out and pointing out the stupidity of cave-man superstitions.

And then, in the greatest of irony, the finger is pointed at atheists for being extremists.

Not conforming....


Mircea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansarado View Post
What do you think the truth is?
God is an artificial human construct.

I spent a very, very long time doing location blocking for each gospel. Starting with Matthew, where was Jesus, where did he go next, then where did he go, and so on. Then I followed up with group blocking; who was Jesus with when he was here; and then who was with Jesus at this location, and that location, and so on. And then I moved to action blocking: what was Jesus doing at this place; at that place; and so on, and then finally dialog blocking: what was Jesus saying?

It was nonsense.

The hundreds of contradictions made it apparent that the gospels were neither written by god, nor inspired by god.

Very obviously, god had no idea where Jesus was, who Jesus was with, and what Jesus was doing. And if god cannot remember what his "only begotten son" was doing and where he was doing it and who he was with, then how in the hell is god going to be able to judge me?

"I'm sending you to Hell for the massacres in Darfur."
"Uh, wut? I was never in Darfur!"
" Poof!"

And who is "The Father?" Jesus never once equates the "The Father" with Yahweh. For all you know, the "The Father" could be Nabu or some other deity.

Jesus couldn't even give a straight-forward answer to what one must do for eternal life. He tells one to follow the Commandments. He tells another to sell all that you own and give the money to the poor. He tells yet another not to sell anything, but rather to simply give away all that you have to the poor. And then he rambles on with still more silliness, like you have to be like the wind; you have to become as a child; you have to hate your mother and father; you have to be born again; you have to eat his flesh and drink his blood; you have to be as righteous as a Pharisee (yet he constantly ridicules the Pharisees).

The guy was a charlatan huckster.

Once you reject the New Testament nonsense based on the overwhelming evidence, you can examine the Old Testament books.

You have a mythical pre-history in the first several chapters of Genesis. The Hebrews never wrote any of it, rather they merely copied older existing stories and made some omissions and modifications. The pre-history is followed by the story of the Patriarchs. The next three books are the Exodus Trilogy: a National Unity Document. That's followed by Deuteronomy were Yahweh suddenly decides he was doing it wrong. You can't build an altar anywhere; the only altar is in Jerusalem at the Temple. You can no longer sacrifice just anywhere; you now can only sacrifice at the Temple. And then Yahweh even changes the types of sacrifices and the manner in which they are performed.

A god who changes his mind? Absurd.

Then you have the histories, like Kings and Chronicles. You can take those with a grain of salt. It is claimed that the Hebrews destroyed 16 cities during the Exodus, yet the most ardent christian archaeologist was only able to find 3 cities that were destroyed, and the evidence does show the Hebrews destroyed those cities (although I think the evidence shows at least one might have been). Worse than that, seven of those cities claimed to be destroyed were either not destroyed, or not even occupied during the time frame of the Exodus. Most embarrassing are Ai, Gideon and Jericho.

So the bible is the infallible word of god, the infallible word of god says that Jericho was destroyed by the Hebrews, but the evidence overwhelmingly shows that not only was Jericho not destroyed, it wasn't even inhabited. How embarrassing is that?

And there are prose works like Ruth, and then the writings of the Prophets.

And as you read this, you see Yahweh punishes individuals for transgressions, then he shifts to punishing the whole Nation of Israel; then he shifts back to individuals and then as you read the writings of the latter Prophets, you see that Yahweh's only interest is in feeding the orphans and widows.

That is not god; that's cultural values.

Yahweh supposedly creates humans, then doesn't even have the common sense to understand that humans will become "wicked." And to top that off, Yahweh thinks plants are "wicked?" Really? So he destroys mankind and then what happens? People are "wicked" again. Yahweh ain't too bright and doesn't understand human nature.

And what do you have against Hitler, Stalin or Pol Pot? How are they any different than Yahweh? They did all the same things Yahweh did.

Romans 13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except by God’s appointment, and the authorities that exist have been instituted by God.

Hitler was "instituted by God."

Therefore, to condemn Hitler is to condemn god.

The same god who will judge you in the after-life, and who couldn't even remember what his "only begotten son" was doing in his short 30-odd year life-time.

If you have 60 years or more, you have a problem.

Those things led me to reject Christianity, and then Judaism, and then by extension Islam, and Hinduism and other religions fare no better, with each receiving the same criticisms.

So after about 8 years I'm agnostic.

Except the concept of god is illogical.

I look around the Universe and see Yin-Yang; Male-Female; Proton-Electron; Positive Ion-Negative Ion; Matter and Anti-Matter; Force and Counter-force and so on.

A single god doesn't fit the pattern.

I suppose someone could say "neutron" and yes I did consider the implications of that, but ultimately rejected it, and became atheist.

That was about 2 years later. I did not become an atheist on a whim; or because I wanted to be different or be a non-conformist or get even with my parents or a girl-friend. It took years of study and analysis, and thinking and pondering to come to that conclusion, based on logic, reason, science and facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansarado View Post
I have read your posts on various topics and you are very well educated, and a very intelligent thinker, but you deny every topic of what could be, from religion to conspiracy stories, and I often don't see you in initial agreement.
I do not.

I have training and experience in planning, organizing and executing conspiracies.

The JFK Assassination was a conspiracy, and you'll see that when the remaining documents are declassified in 2039 (documents classified Top Secret Cosmic undergo review at 75 years after classification).

Pearl Harbor was a conspiracy, and you'll see that when the remaining documents are declassified in 2022.

9-11 was a conspiracy. Your government knows that, but it is not in government's nature to fully investigate such matters. Better to close ranks and keep silent. Why? That should be painfully obvious. Would you as a parent voluntarily admit to your family, friends, neighbors and school authorities that your child was running around out of control acting without your consent or authority? No. So you really believe the government is going to admit that its employees in various agencies may be running around out of control acting without authority? No, they aren't.

Is Roswell a conspiracy? Yes. About what? I don't know.

All I can tell you is do the math. The instrument package on a weather balloon, what are its dimensions and what is its mass? Calculate terminal velocity. Look at the photos. For something to make a furrow that long and that deep, it would have to be a) falling vertically, and b) moving laterally. If it was a weather balloon, then what was its horizontal velocity? Whatever it was, it was of extremely sturdy construction, so that it did not immediately break apart on impact, and it had sufficient mass and velocity to allow it to impact, create an initial impact creator, and then retained sufficient velocity to create a furrow in the earth. Logical conclusion: not a weather balloon.

Is there some conspiracy about extra-terrestrials? Not per se. We don't know, and we're both embarrassed and afraid to admit we don't know isn't exactly a conspiracy. Seeing how people will commit suicide over a comet, it would seem to be in everyone's best interests to say nothing, even more so when nothing is known.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansarado View Post
How do you know what you know?
Life.

My first combat mission was to board an helicopter, fly to a designated location, observe the movements of units in the Soviet Northern Front, then after 3 days, make contact with Commander III Corps and report. If Commander III Corps was dead or not available, then make contact with Commander NORTHAG or Commander BALTAP and barring that, flee to friendly areas. Pretty cool.

My other combat mission involved the Triparte Treaty with France and the UK. We practiced scenarios in the event the Soviets blockaded Berlin. One scenario was a "show of force," another was breaking the blockade, and another was, more or less, WW III. That's why I was in Berlin (East and West) a lot.

When I wasn't doing that, I was training with Brits or Canadians, or playing "Tag" in the 1 Kilometer Zone with C/2-1 CAV against the Soviets and East Germans.

Then I was at TRADOC Headquarters writing and reviewing doctrine for AirLand Battle 2000, detailing strategic operations for the conquest of Central Asia, playing war games at the NTSC, hanging out at foreign embassies in MDW with Lieutenant General Morelli, or in Egypt training Egyptian troops in rear area combat operations.

Then I went to play with the bomb for 3 1/2 years. I played with different bombs in different countries. Got to watch the Soviets play with their bombs.

Panama, Honduras, Iraq. S-3/S-3 Air Ops. Rain fire and steel on people. Police officer, detective sergeant, private investigator, paralegal. Student off and on. London. Ended up there quite by accident. Did consulting for a production company that produced documentaries. Fidgeted around with sound. "You know how to do that?" Hell yeah, my first real job was a sound engineer at WBTI-TV. So they dumped a bunch of 1/2 inch carts in my lap and I did the sound and sound-tracks for those.

Romania. Dining at Coandi's Pizza, my police friends come in, "Some guys are looking for you." They were from Channel 4 (UK). "John told us you speak Serbian. We're going to Serbia." Sitting on a ridge. Serbian mech brigade dug in across the valley. Canadian F-18s and US Tomcats and F-18s flying around (we learned to stay away from post offices). They can't find the Serbs. "Check it out. Let's go for a walk." "Why?" That's a Long Track Radar support vehicle. That means there's a Long Track Radar around here somewhere, and that means there are either Gainful or Ganef batteries around, and that means there's ZSU-23s around." They were at the end of the valley on the other side of a ridge. It's a good thing Clinton didn't send troops. It would have been bloody.

Went back to Romania, came back to the US, finished my degrees, returned to Romania, came back to the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansarado View Post
How can one be so well educated on so many topics?
It really isn't a lot. It's a few topics/areas, and then a handful related to the few.

I don't comment on things I know nothing about. Yes, I have a degree in Economics, but it would be morally and ethically wrong for me to advise you or anyone else about banking, finance or investments, because I know nothing about those things, and that's why I don't comment on them in the investment forum.

I hate ignorance, in part because when you are ignorant, you can be used, abused and misled by others. So I try to gain at the minimum, a basic understanding, but even so, there are many things I know nothing about. However, I can take solace in the fact that of those things I am ignorant or lacking in knowledge, they cannot be used against to me to harm me.

When I was playing with the bomb for 3 1/2 years, we had more or less about 400 people in our unit. Of those, a little over 30 were married.

In 3 1/2 years, 12 women got pregnant, but there isn't one living child. Why not? They all died. Some through miscarriage (like my ex-wife), some through spontaneous abortion (essentially a miscarriage in the 2nd or 3rd Trimester), three still-born children, and two children born living, who were deformed, suffering from defects and who died within a few hours.

How is that possible?

12 women. My mother is a mother, knows other mothers, is a neuro-psychologist on staff at an hospital and she barely knows of 6 women. Most women I had asked could barely name one or two women who experienced a miscarriage or still-birth.

But I know 12.

Different ages, different places in the US, and in Germany, they lived in different locations, so it wasn't the water, food, air or something like Love Canal. What was the common denominator?

The fathers. They were all certified US Government custodial agents, and they worked around nuclear weapons for hours and hours at a time.

How much shielding is there between you and that 4.5 kg of weapons grade plutonium in a back-pack nuke? 5 mm of standard military grade aluminum (97% aluminum and 3% chromium, nickel and iron). All of the weapon casings for nuclear warheads are aluminum. And so are the shipping containers. Yeah, so we were all burned by radiation and lots of it. And I thought I was smart. After spending time studying radiation and the effects of radiation etc, I realized how stupid I really was.

Once burnt, twice shy (literally in this instance).

In the few months before I left for London, I traveled around the US and visited my troops and discussed this with them. I felt I owed them at least that much. And they were angry, but not at me, because they realized they had been duped just as I was.

And it is all written out in a sworn statement/deposition signed by an attorney with accompanying documentation and evidence, and hidden in several locations. Why? If at some point in the future they get cancers or illnesses related to radiation exposure, they'll have evidence to secure VA medical benefits. As I recall, the last time US troops were exposed to radiation during nuclear weapons testing, the government claimed for more than 40 years it had never tested nuclear weapons. So I won't be shocked if in the future the government claims it never made nuclear weapons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansarado View Post
Why though, with all your wisdom, can you not perceive ways to move the entire world in a positive direction?
I cannot save the world, and neither can anyone else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansarado View Post
If you are capable of such thoughts and in the goodness of your heart and humbleness for the gift that has been bestowed upon you, will you choose to use your ability to stop starvation, educate society to love eachother, remind them that the fundamental principle of economics is scarcity, and help them to be selfless under their own free will?
I cannot do that.

I can offer suggestions and solutions, and point out alternatives, and you and others are free to accept them in whole or in part, or reject them in whole or in part.

If I have to do it for you, then it's all meaningless.

I have cited book, chapter and verse from the Social Security and Medicare actuarial reports, proving beyond reasonable doubt that both of those programs are insolvent; why they are insolvent, including showing the math, and that Medicare will collapse in 2018 (or sooner) and Social Security in 2028 (or sooner). I've offered alternatives and suggestions, but I cannot make that happen. you all have to do that.

Just as Karl Marx predicted, your government is now merely nothing more than a platform for the Bourgeoisie to carry out their plans.

You can fix that by that amending the US Constitution to create a sort of "Separation of Corporation and State," whereby only those people who are eligible to vote in a given election or for a particular ballot issue may contribute campaigns to the candidates or the ballot issues. Since corporations, PACs, Unions, Think-Tanks, Special Interest Groups and foreigners are not eligible to vote, they cannot contribute. That would have a positive effect on government and your quality of life.

But I cannot do that for you, you have to do it, and you have to want to do it, and you must want to do it out of logic, reason and common sense, and not out of fear or conformity or any other illogical reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansarado View Post
All men are capable of emotional responses, where we ignore what is righteous and perform acts we know are wrong and will fill us with regret and shame us when we conjure up a memory of what occured.
That is part and parcel of the human condition and nothing will change that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansarado View Post
Can you eliminate evil, and restore goodness without commiting evil yourself in either your thoughts or your actions?
No, and neither can anyone else.

You can shower the Scorpion with love, but in the end, he will still sting you.

Knowing what I know...

Mircea
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