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Old 04-18-2012, 08:41 AM
 
3,673 posts, read 4,932,949 times
Reputation: 2422

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
That is what I get for hoping for an answer containing any actual arguments or content. One word answers are worth exactly as much to me as the time and effort you bothered to put into them.

So you think your idea of "normal" should dictate what is the "ideal" upbringing for a child? Great for you. Totalitarian much? What makes your definition of "normal" the one to work from? What even IS your definition of normal and on what is it based? Alas all too often "normal" to most people seems to mean "Like me".
hehe
sorry. you did have good points in there and i did read the whole thing, but i was running into a meeting and had to reply with the one word response on your one of many questions.

i think 'normal' is dictated by the society. Normal isn't always the best or even the right option (Look at religion or believing in a god or gods for instance. yeah, it' normal to believe in a god, but that doesn't make it right or logical ). So i get what you're saying....
you do however have to keep one other thing in mind....something i've mentioned before.....that when i do the comparison between the two sets of parents, i'm talking everything else being equal. (so the question of good/bad parenting is out the window. We're assuming good parents on both side). So given that, tell me, as a 13 year old, if you were offered (and you had to choose) a heterosexual set of parents who loved you and were good parents, or a gay set of parents who loved you and were good parents, which would you choose? (and remember, you have to choose one or you'd be left with no parents! )
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Old 04-18-2012, 09:39 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,278,810 times
Reputation: 2973
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinking-man View Post
you did have good points in there and i did read the whole thing, but i was running into a meeting and had to reply with the one word response
Had to? Was there a gun to your head or do you have some kind of OCD compulsion to answer threads instantly without... for example... waiting until later when you have more time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinking-man View Post
i think 'normal' is dictated by the society.
Yet there is no standard of "normal" within society. "normal" today is everything from teenage mothers to single parents to divorce lawyers and courts. The standard of "normal" you refer to in order to place the 1man+1woman dynamic as an "ideal" simply does not appear to exist as strongly as you might want it to.

Further just because something is "normal" (even if you had not failed to establish such a standard) this does not make it synonymous with "ideal". That is a complete non-sequitur in fact. "Normal" and "Ideal" are not synonymous. Again "normal" for most people simply appears to translate to "like me".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinking-man View Post
tell me, as a 13 year old, if you were offered (and you had to choose) a heterosexual set of parents who loved you and were good parents, or a gay set of parents who loved you and were good parents, which would you choose?
This is truly awful for a few reasons:

1) I do not do hypothetical so am not about to answer fantasy questions about fantasy scenarios.

2) What is "ideal" for a kids upbringing has nothing to do with what the kid would "choose" anyway. Ask a kid if (s)he wants to choose vegetables and water for dinner or cheesy greasy pizza and coca cola. Most of the time the kid will choose the latter, not the former. Does that say ANYTHING about how "ideal" one meal choice is over the other? No. Not a thing. Kids will choose what THEY want subjectively not what is "ideal" for them. If your sole defense for 1man+1woman being "ideal" is that most kids would likely choose that given the option.... then you are on even weaker ground here than I previously even suspected.

3) Kids do not generally choose their parents. So what a kid would choose in that scenario is irrelevant anyway.
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Old 04-18-2012, 10:32 AM
 
3,673 posts, read 4,932,949 times
Reputation: 2422
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Had to? Was there a gun to your head or do you have some kind of OCD compulsion to answer threads instantly without... for example... waiting until later when you have more time?
Actually both! I do have the mentioned OCD and someone was in fact holding a gun to my head at the time! good guess!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Yet there is no standard of "normal" within society. "normal" today is everything from teenage mothers to single parents to divorce lawyers and courts. The standard of "normal" you refer to in order to place the 1man+1woman dynamic as an "ideal" simply does not appear to exist as strongly as you might want it to.
Further just because something is "normal" (even if you had not failed to establish such a standard) this does not make it synonymous with "ideal". That is a complete non-sequitur in fact. "Normal" and "Ideal" are not synonymous. Again "normal" for most people simply appears to translate to "like me".

False.
it's not whether "I" want it to or not. those are just the facts. sorry they're not to your liking.
Wow! did you figure out the difference between "normal" and "ideal" all by yourself!? bravo!
fyi, nobody said they are synonymous. in fact, i made the point of giving you an example...but i guess that flew over your head.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
This is truly awful for a few reasons:

1) I do not do hypothetical so am not about to answer fantasy questions about fantasy scenarios.

2) What is "ideal" for a kids upbringing has nothing to do with what the kid would "choose" anyway. Ask a kid if (s)he wants to choose vegetables and water for dinner or cheesy greasy pizza and coca cola. Most of the time the kid will choose the latter, not the former. Does that say ANYTHING about how "ideal" one meal choice is over the other? No. Not a thing. Kids will choose what THEY want subjectively not what is "ideal" for them. If your sole defense for 1man+1woman being "ideal" is that most kids would likely choose that given the option.... then you are on even weaker ground here than I previously even suspected.

3) Kids do not generally choose their parents. So what a kid would choose in that scenario is irrelevant anyway.
I believe your answer is the loving/caring Heterosexual parents. Once you can answer for yourself why that is, then you'll realize my point.

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Old 04-19-2012, 01:32 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,278,810 times
Reputation: 2973
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinking-man View Post
Actually both! I do have the mentioned OCD and someone was in fact holding a gun to my head at the time!
Fatuousness aside, it does simply look better if you make good posts when you have time to rather than empty throw away one word posts. Perhaps you do not care how your posts come across, in which case ignore the advice, but the advice is good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinking-man View Post
those are just the facts.
Thankfully, given some of the nutty things people claim in this world, simply calling something a "fact" does not magically mean it is one. I see no such fact. It appears... even though it might not be to your liking... that there is no set standard of what is "normal" in this realm and as I said "normal" is not synonymous with "ideal". So the entire line of argument is a non point. The patronising and childish "bravo" tone is not going to change that either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinking-man View Post
I believe your answer is the loving/caring Heterosexual parents.
If that was my answer, then that would have been what I typed. It was not, so I did not. If it helps you to ignore my answer and create some of your own for me then so be it, but I think that is quite telling about the strength of your argument on this point.

Again, what a child would "choose" is not synonymous with what is "ideal" for that child so your question is... again... a non point. We are discussing what is "ideal" or what reasons we have for thinking any particular configuration is the "ideal". What a child would choose is irrelevant in this.

So I am still waiting for some argument from you as to why the traditional parental configuration is "ideal" in any way. Clearly declaring it is "normal" is a non sequitur and irrelevant... you said as much yourself... and asking what a child would themselves choose is also a non point and irrelevant as quite often children choose the exact opposite of what is ideal for them. So I am left wondering have you any points left at all to support the "ideal" claim. There is certainly none in evidence and throw away "it is all over your head" comments certainly is not going to bolster an empty line of reasoning.
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Old 04-19-2012, 07:59 AM
 
17,853 posts, read 12,218,142 times
Reputation: 4113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinking-man View Post
hehe
sorry. you did have good points in there and i did read the whole thing, but i was running into a meeting and had to reply with the one word response on your one of many questions.

i think 'normal' is dictated by the society. Normal isn't always the best or even the right option (Look at religion or believing in a god or gods for instance. yeah, it' normal to believe in a god, but that doesn't make it right or logical ). So i get what you're saying....
you do however have to keep one other thing in mind....something i've mentioned before.....that when i do the comparison between the two sets of parents, i'm talking everything else being equal. (so the question of good/bad parenting is out the window. We're assuming good parents on both side). So given that, tell me, as a 13 year old, if you were offered (and you had to choose) a heterosexual set of parents who loved you and were good parents, or a gay set of parents who loved you and were good parents, which would you choose? (and remember, you have to choose one or you'd be left with no parents! )
Study: Children of Lesbians May Do Better Than Their Peers

The authors found that children raised by lesbian mothers — whether the mother was partnered or single — scored very similarly to children raised by heterosexual parents on measures of development and social behavior. These findings were expected, the authors said; however, they were surprised to discover that children in lesbian homes scored higher than kids in straight families on some psychological measures of self-esteem and confidence, did better academically and were less likely to have behavioral problems, such as rule-breaking and aggression.

Read more: Kids with Lesbian Parents May Do Better Than Their Peers - TIME
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:45 PM
 
3,673 posts, read 4,932,949 times
Reputation: 2422
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymax View Post
Study: Children of Lesbians May Do Better Than Their Peers

The authors found that children raised by lesbian mothers — whether the mother was partnered or single — scored very similarly to children raised by heterosexual parents on measures of development and social behavior. These findings were expected, the authors said; however, they were surprised to discover that children in lesbian homes scored higher than kids in straight families on some psychological measures of self-esteem and confidence, did better academically and were less likely to have behavioral problems, such as rule-breaking and aggression.

Read more: Kids with Lesbian Parents May Do Better Than Their Peers - TIME
interesting! thanks!
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Old 07-02-2014, 12:52 AM
 
Location: Virginia
93 posts, read 60,786 times
Reputation: 326
My two cents:

Equality matters more to me than the issue of whether or not God exists. Atheist or Christian, Republican or Democrat; I don’t think you can judge a person by their religious beliefs or lack thereof or even their political affiliation. I judge people for what they DO and how they actually treat others in their daily lives. I worry more about my own actions than I do about my beliefs and thoughts. Sometimes the way that people behave is drastically different from the values they claim to believe in. I think history will come down hard on us for how we've treated people who are gay; just like history makes clear the sickness of people who opposed other types of civil rights issues. I believe hindsight will be painful for many of us, as it should be.
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Old 07-03-2014, 06:15 PM
 
Location: Canada
135 posts, read 104,006 times
Reputation: 78
The religious do not have a monopoly on being bigoted. I have a feeling most of the religous who hold those views are using their bible as a sword and shield. It gives them an excuse. There are plenty of people who are atheists and anti gay (I've met one who openly was) but I do think a much smaller percentage of athiests are this way in comparison to the percentage of christians. You're not likely to notice them because they hold a minority view within a minority.
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Old 07-03-2014, 07:53 PM
 
40,043 posts, read 26,725,598 times
Reputation: 6048
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceist View Post
Study: Children of Lesbians May Do Better Than Their Peers

The authors found that children raised by lesbian mothers — whether the mother was partnered or single — scored very similarly to children raised by heterosexual parents on measures of development and social behavior. These findings were expected, the authors said; however, they were surprised to discover that children in lesbian homes scored higher than kids in straight families on some psychological measures of self-esteem and confidence, did better academically and were less likely to have behavioral problems, such as rule-breaking and aggression.

Read more: Kids with Lesbian Parents May Do Better Than Their Peers - TIME
This shouldn't be too surprising. Using a selective breeding rationale . . . women have been selectively bred through the generations to be nurturers. Not so for the men. Thus with Lesbian parents the kids have two nurturers instead of one.
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Old 07-04-2014, 05:07 AM
 
3,637 posts, read 2,696,059 times
Reputation: 4300
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Using a selective breeding rationale . . . women have been selectively bred through the generations to be nurturers. Not so for the men.
What nonsense misandry is this? Please show me how men are any less nurturing of their children than women are here.
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