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Old 01-20-2012, 04:47 PM
 
Location: Tampa, FL
2,638 posts, read 6,069,237 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by looking4answers12 View Post
My answer:
I don't choose who I am attracted to.
Exactly. And neither do LGB people, they are attracted to whoever gets their motor running.

Quote:
But, I have been attracted to more than one person, and I have had to choose, who to have a relationship with and who not to have a relationship with. That's where the choice comes in.

For arguments sake. A bisexual person can be attracted to a person of the same gener and aperson of the opposite gender at the same time. Eventually, if they are the type who prefers to be in a monagamous relationship, hey will have to choose, who they want to be with.
In your hypothetical situation there is a bisexual who is simultaneously attracted to a partner of each gender. We agree that the attraction itself is not a choice but something that arises from within, yes? And then the bisexual makes a choice about which of these relationships will be pursued and let's assume for the sake of argument that the bisexual must choose one or the other, not string them both along or kick them both to the curb.

In this case, many people would choose whoever they are more strongly attracted to. Some people would choose whoever has more power or money. Some people would choose someone they wanted to grow old with (I think, the wisest choice, but I am biased!).

So am I to understand that you are saying it would always be better to choose the opposite sex partner over the same sex partner? What if the same sex partner was an upstanding pillar of the community pro bono lawyer who spends spare time cheering up kids with cancer, but the opposite sex partner was a meth head who was really good at disassembling a bicycle?

Quote:
So yeah, maybe you don't choose whether or not you are bisexual, but you can choose what type of relationship you are in. At least in some cases.
That of course is true of everyone and everyone has some responsibility for who they choose to become romatically entangled with. Some of us make better choices in this regard than others. But gay, straight, bi, these are terms for sexual preferences which are NOT choices but innate orientations.
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Old 01-20-2012, 05:35 PM
 
Location: FL
1,727 posts, read 1,037,091 times
Reputation: 972
Quote:
Originally Posted by LindavG View Post
But what if you find the One, the person you just know you want to spend the rest of your life with, and this person happens to be of the same sex? It's not like anyone can pick and choose whom they fall in love with. It would be like telling a heterosexual not to act upon his feelings if he/she deeply falls in love with a person of the opposite sex, 'cause he/she might meet someone in the future that is more acceptable to society. But what if you never meet this person and you let the love of your life go just because other people (who don't even know you) feel that your relationship is "wrong"? Bisexuals do not have a "choice" to be with one gender or the other. That would only be the case if they fell in love with a man and a woman at the same time and they liked them equally as much, which rarely if ever happens.

I understand that. Which is why don't think it's right to judge gay people or tell them they are wrong for being who they are.

It's heartbreaking to be faced with the choice of deciding to be true to yourself and who you really are or having to go against your nature to live a live that more people (and to some people's beliefs) that God would approve of.
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Old 01-20-2012, 05:38 PM
 
Location: FL
1,727 posts, read 1,037,091 times
Reputation: 972
Quote:
Originally Posted by tilli View Post
So am I to understand that you are saying it would always be better to choose the opposite sex partner over the same sex partner? What if the same sex partner was an upstanding pillar of the community pro bono lawyer who spends spare time cheering up kids with cancer, but the opposite sex partner was a meth head who was really good at disassembling a bicycle?
No. That's not what I believe at all.

Quote:
That of course is true of everyone and everyone has some responsibility for who they choose to become romatically entangled with. Some of us make better choices in this regard than others. But gay, straight, bi, these are terms for sexual preferences which are NOT choices but innate orientations.
I'm not gay so I can't say for sure that this is exactly right, but I do take the word of those who are and say that it's true.

As I said, I believe in the case of bisexual people they can choose their relationship. This doesn' mean they can choose their attraction. I guess to put it simply they just have more people to choose from.
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Old 01-20-2012, 05:41 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
2,904 posts, read 2,047,659 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by looking4answers12 View Post
I understand that. Which is why don't think it's right to judge gay people or tell them they are wrong for being who they are.

It's heartbreaking to be faced with the choice of deciding to be true to yourself and who you really are or having to go against your nature to live a live that more people (and to some people's beliefs) that God would approve of.
I wasn't talking about gay people in this case but about bisexuals. After reading Mircea's ignorant post I know that even atheists can have ridiculously bigoted ideas about how sexual orientation is merely about sexual gratification and we can choose to be with the other gender instead. I don't want more people to read his hateful ramblings so I'm not gonna quote him in response.
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Old 01-20-2012, 05:54 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
2,904 posts, read 2,047,659 times
Reputation: 3247
Quote:
Originally Posted by looking4answers12 View Post
As I said, I believe in the case of bisexual people they can choose their relationship. This doesn' mean they can choose their attraction. I guess to put it simply they just have more people to choose from.
Except that this is not true. Do you believe in true love? Do you believe that some people are just "meant to be"? I do as I have seen it with my own eyes. Just because bisexuals can experience physical attraction for both genders doesn't mean that they can choose whom they fall in love with. We heterosexuals don't fall in love with every person from the opposite sex either even though we theoretically could, do we? If we're lucky, we find our soulmate with whom we want to spend the rest of our lives. For bisexuals, this could be someone from either gender. What if a bisexual person falls in love with someone from the same sex and really feels like this is the One for him/her, do you think this person should just ignore these feelings and hope that in the future, he/she will find another soulmate from the opposite sex, even though that may never happen? WHY should they do that? Just so their neighbours don't have to feel "uncomfortable" when they're walking hand in hand? What can possibly be wrong about two consenting adults being in a loving relationship? I simply cannot understand how anyone can be so cruel to deny others to experience true love and have the same rights as everyone else. I'm convinced that in the future, people will look back at this with just as much shame as we do with racism and sexism. It's already starting to change. At least I won't have to explain to my future grandchildren why I was on the wrong side of the fence back in the day.
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Old 01-20-2012, 06:26 PM
 
Location: FL
1,727 posts, read 1,037,091 times
Reputation: 972
Quote:
Originally Posted by LindavG View Post
Except that this is not true. Do you believe in true love? Do you believe that some people are just "meant to be"? I do as I have seen it with my own eyes. Just because bisexuals can experience physical attraction for both genders doesn't mean that they can choose whom they fall in love with. We heterosexuals don't fall in love with every person from the opposite sex either even though we theoretically could, do we? If we're lucky, we find our soulmate with whom we want to spend the rest of our lives. For bisexuals, this could be someone from either gender. What if a bisexual person falls in love with someone from the same sex and really feels like this is the One for him/her, do you think this person should just ignore these feelings and hope that in the future, he/she will find another soulmate from the opposite sex, even though that may never happen? WHY should they do that? Just so their neighbours don't have to feel "uncomfortable" when they're walking hand in hand? What can possibly be wrong about two consenting adults being in a loving relationship? I simply cannot understand how anyone can be so cruel to deny others to experience true love and have the same rights as everyone else. I'm convinced that in the future, people will look back at this with just as much shame as we do with racism and sexism. It's already starting to change. At least I won't have to explain to my future grandchildren why I was on the wrong side of the fence back in the day.

True love...
It's kind of rare isn't it?
I wish I could say I was in a fairy tale relationship, but I'm not. In fact, most of the people I know are not. It's great in theory, but I haven't seen it in real life nearly as much as I wish I did.

I never said they "should" anything. I said they might and that some probably do. It's a sad choice to make, but people make hard choices all the time regarding relationships don't they?

I'm sorry. I probably shouldn't even be replying right now. I am feeling a bit under the weather. I just couldn't resist taking a peek at the message boards one last time before I give in to this bug that is about to hit me.

I will come back when I'm feeling better and read your post a little better. I only replied to a couple things that jumped out at me.

Y'all just don't jump to conclusions about me because I am asking questions. There's more to me than meets the eye.
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Old 01-20-2012, 07:27 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
2,904 posts, read 2,047,659 times
Reputation: 3247
Quote:
Originally Posted by looking4answers12 View Post
True love...
It's kind of rare isn't it?
I wish I could say I was in a fairy tale relationship, but I'm not. In fact, most of the people I know are not. It's great in theory, but I haven't seen it in real life nearly as much as I wish I did.
I've seen it with my sister She got married at 18 to her first love (and she was her husband's first love) and they've been married for almost 7 years now and have 2 kids (ages 6 and 3). They are so happy together it's heartwarming to see. I hope I find that some day. I haven't given up hope

Quote:
I never said they "should" anything. I said they might and that some probably do. It's a sad choice to make, but people make hard choices all the time regarding relationships don't they?
But why should they have to make these choices just to please other people? It's always wrong to choose your partner based on other people's expectations. Everyone has the right to be with the person they love without being discriminated or ridiculed. A century ago interracial marriage was also considered "socially unacceptable" by some people. Should people of different races who were in love have just ignored their feelings and conform to society at the time?

Quote:
I'm sorry. I probably shouldn't even be replying right now. I am feeling a bit under the weather. I just couldn't resist taking a peek at the message boards one last time before I give in to this bug that is about to hit me.

I will come back when I'm feeling better and read your post a little better. I only replied to a couple things that jumped out at me.
That's OK, I hope you get well soon

Quote:
Y'all just don't jump to conclusions about me because I am asking questions. There's more to me than meets the eye.
Don't worry, there's nothing wrong with asking questions. It would get boring around here if nobody ever asked questions
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Old 01-20-2012, 07:47 PM
 
Location: FL
1,727 posts, read 1,037,091 times
Reputation: 972
Quote:
Originally Posted by LindavG View Post
I've seen it with my sister She got married at 18 to her first love (and she was her husband's first love) and they've been married for almost 7 years now and have 2 kids (ages 6 and 3). They are so happy together it's heartwarming to see. I hope I find that some day. I haven't given up hope



But why should they have to make these choices just to please other people? It's always wrong to choose your partner based on other people's expectations. Everyone has the right to be with the person they love without being discriminated or ridiculed. A century ago interracial marriage was also considered "socially unacceptable" by some people. Should people of different races who were in love have just ignored their feelings and conform to society at the time?



That's OK, I hope you get well soon



Don't worry, there's nothing wrong with asking questions. It would get boring around here if nobody ever asked questions
1- That's awesome about your sister. I wish there is more of that going around. Pay attention to the examples they set!

2- Nobody should have to choose their relationships based on other people's expectations. I agree with you on that one.

3- Thank you! I hope I feel better soon too!

4-Thanks, I agree with that too.
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Old 01-20-2012, 07:49 PM
 
15,576 posts, read 5,430,835 times
Reputation: 3644
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
Another interesting theory I ran across in the book, "A billion wicked thoughts" was that, at least for gay men, their orientation was related to hormonal changes in utero. Their theory was essentially when an excess of testosterone is present in the developing brain, the excess can act like estrogen, so you wind up with men who tend to have some hyper-masculine sexual behaviors, but respond to the same sexual cues as the female brain. I have not dug into the supporting research, but it seems like a fairly interesting theory.

Again, as an atheist, I might be a little squicked out by it, but why would want to be hateful to someone who's crime was to have a different dose of hormones in the womb? Without the condemnation of a deity, it really boils down to what I like or don't like, and I am rational enough to not try to force everyone to like exactly what Ilike.

NoCapo

Here you go:


Sexual hormones and the brain: an essential alliance for sexual identity and sexual orientation (2010)
Endocr Dev. 2010;17:22-35. Epub 2009 Nov 24. Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF.

The fetal brain develops during the intrauterine period in the male direction through a direct action of testosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hormone surge. In this way, our gender identity (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) and sexual orientation are programmed or organized into our brain structures when we are still in the womb.

However, since sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place in the first two months of pregnancy and sexual differentiation of the brain starts in the second half of pregnancy, these two processes can be influenced independently, which may result in extreme cases in trans-sexuality. This also means that in the event of ambiguous sex at birth, the degree of masculinization of the genitals may not reflect the degree of masculinization of the brain.

There is no indication that social environment after birth has an effect on gender identity or sexual orientation.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____

Brain scans have provided the most compelling evidence yet that being gay or straight is a biologically fixed trait.

The scans reveal that in gay people, key structures of the brain governing emotion, mood, anxiety and aggressiveness resemble those in straight people of the opposite sex.
The differences are likely to have been forged in the womb or in early infancy”

__________________________________________________ _____


"I demonstrate that the number of biological older brothers, including those not reared with the participant (but not the number of nonbiological older brothers), increases the probability of homosexuality in men. These results provide evidence that a prenatal mechanism(s), and not social and/or rearing factors, affects men's sexual orientation development."

"Biological Versus Nonbiological Older Brothers and Men’s Sexual Orientation," published by PNAS (Proceedings of the NationalAcademy of Sciences of the United States of America): Bogaert, A (2006)
http://www.pnas.org/content/103/28/10771.full.pdf

__________________________________________________ __________


"There's a converging line of evidence between the hormonal studies, the genetic studies , and the neuroanatomical studies. My research has identified candidate genes within these new chromosomal regions that could link together all of these different findings”

Mustanski, B. S.; DuPree, M. G.; Nievergelt, C. M.; Bocklandt, S.; Schork, N. J.; Hamer, D. H. (2005)
A genomewide scan of male sexual orientation. [Hum Genet. 2005] - PubMed result

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________


Here's a couple of layman's articles:

Gay men, straight women have similar brains - Los Angeles Times

Symmetry Of Homosexual Brain Resembles That Of Opposite Sex, Swedish Study Finds

And some of the brain studies:

Sexual orientation and its basis in brain structure and function

PET and MRI show differences in cerebral asymmetry and functional connectivity between homo- and heterosexual subjects

Brain response to putative pheromones in homosexual men

Sexual orientation and the size of the anterior commissure in the human brain

Brain response to putative pheromones in lesbian women

http://reberlab.psych.northwestern.e...ron_BN2007.pdf

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Old 01-20-2012, 08:09 PM
 
Location: FL
1,727 posts, read 1,037,091 times
Reputation: 972
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
I don't know what "anti-gay" means, so you'll have to define it in no uncertain terms.

Also, I didn't see "homophobe" in the DSM-IV, so you'll have to define that as well.

Not nit-picking....

Mircea



"Unnatural" doesn't rise to the level of "hatred."

Are you disgusted by rape? Murder? Kidnapping? Arson? Liars?

Just curious....

Mircea



Then you haven't looked.

Googling...

Mircea



I have a great dislike for NASCAR, Budweiser, and country music, as well red-necks. What kind of phobia is that?

Wondering...

Mircea



Yes, they do have a choice. It is about satisfying sexual urges and achieving sexual gratification and nothing to do with the wiring of the brain, except perhaps to the same extent that a pedophile or rapist might be wired.

In their quest for acceptance, homosexuals supported bi-sexuals, which in my opinion was a gross tactical error and one that actually delayed their acceptance. The psychology of bisexualism is very different from homosexualism, and the two cannot be reconciled.

Just saying...

Mircea
1- anti-gay - not liking a person simply because they are gay. Homophobic- don't know if here is an official definition. There probably are people who are truly homophobic (fear of gay people), but as you probably well know, it is more commonly used to descibe people who just can't stand being around gay people etc.

2- Not liking nascar, rednecks, budwiser or country music. not liking isn't necessarily a "fear". If it were a fear, I would guess that it would fall under some type of social phobia, maybe. Or maybe just the fear of having good simple FUN. <shrug> You don't know what your missing!
But, of course, it's your life. Enjoy it however you will.

No comments on the rest of what you said, but I'm not gonna mess with the delete or quote buttons.
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