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Old 01-27-2012, 06:26 PM
 
16,300 posts, read 24,972,538 times
Reputation: 8282

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdaelectro View Post
No, absolutely not. Make it an atheist mantra (whatever that may look like) for all I care.
We don't have one, how about something Islamic?
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Old 01-27-2012, 07:20 PM
 
40,098 posts, read 26,761,498 times
Reputation: 6050
Considering a school part of government (as in governance of society) is absolutely absurd and reveals the disaster of allowing lawyers to dominate the public discourse and nitpick the social contract to death. Lawyers are a blight on the exercise of our freedoms and their adversarial approach destroys any social arguments and relationships that they are involved in. What should be handled with common sense and amicability is inevitably turned into a virtual nuclear confrontation by lawyers and the so-called justice system. A prayer placed on a wall in a different time under a different social climate that advocates decent behavior is turned into a Constitutional confrontation!!! Bah humbug!
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Old 01-27-2012, 07:47 PM
 
705 posts, read 944,098 times
Reputation: 320
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Considering a school part of government (as in governance of society) is absolutely absurd and reveals the disaster of allowing lawyers to dominate the public discourse and nitpick the social contract to death. Lawyers are a blight on the exercise of our freedoms and their adversarial approach destroys any social arguments and relationships that they are involved in. What should be handled with common sense and amicability is inevitably turned into a virtual nuclear confrontation by lawyers and the so-called justice system. A prayer placed on a wall in a different time under a different social climate that advocates decent behavior is turned into a Constitutional confrontation!!! Bah humbug!
The lawyers had nothing to do with public schools being government/public buildings. Tax dollars provide them so they are public owned. Pretty basic.
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Old 01-27-2012, 08:13 PM
 
3,424 posts, read 2,748,914 times
Reputation: 3318
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Considering a school part of government (as in governance of society) is absolutely absurd and reveals the disaster of allowing lawyers to dominate the public discourse and nitpick the social contract to death. Lawyers are a blight on the exercise of our freedoms and their adversarial approach destroys any social arguments and relationships that they are involved in. What should be handled with common sense and amicability is inevitably turned into a virtual nuclear confrontation by lawyers and the so-called justice system. A prayer placed on a wall in a different time under a different social climate that advocates decent behavior is turned into a Constitutional confrontation!!! Bah humbug!
Public schools are, in fact, financed by State and Federal funds. Not only are they financed by the government, the buildings themselvess are government buildings. The only way you don't know this is if you've been asleep your entire life.
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Old 01-27-2012, 09:58 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,884 posts, read 31,780,534 times
Reputation: 12629
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdaelectro View Post
What?an attitude of tolerance? If I was working at a government building and a Muslim or any other religion wanted to make a prayer and present it as a gift to be hung in the halls, I could care less. Oh well, in any case I hope the school doesn't appeal it. What a waste of money.
Tolerance? What tolerance? You have shown us plainly with your various threads that you have no tolerance for anyone who does not think exactly as you do.
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Old 01-28-2012, 08:09 AM
 
Location: Dallas
242 posts, read 197,187 times
Reputation: 151
Default so why the need to lie about it?

There are a few issues about this case that really get to me; especially when added in with the Dover trials on "Intelligent Design" the Ten Commandments in the courthouse, and even the more recent law being overturned in Oklahoma "banning Shariah law."

I gather that a lot of the people in this particular forum can actually understand that this was a pretty clear violation of the establishment clause (and I guess more importantly ...case law), but a few other seem to have a few problems. The people that don't seem to understand the constitutional interpretations that have repeatedly held up for over 60 years always seem to overlook one important thing: the defendants KNOW those laws, and did they NOT know the laws, they wouldn't have felt the need to bypass their own ninth commandment in order to make a defense.

In this particular case, the school's defense for keeping the billboard was that it wasn't supposed to BE a prayer, it was just a gift from a former student that just so happened to be prominently displayed. The judge ruled that since it began with "Our Heavenly Father" and ended with "amen" ...then it was a prayer. This really ought to be a no-brainer for everyone. I've looked at this same subject over in the political forum and I'm frankly amazed that so many people can actually believe it wasn't unconstitutional when even the school KNEW it was (otherwise, why did they use a "well, it's not REALLY a prayer" defense?).

The "Ten Commandments in the courthouse" used the defense that the display of them had absolutely nothing to do with religion and was all about historical heritage. Then it had thousands of demonstrators screaming religious persecution while wearing "ten commandment" lapel pins ...which really kind of kills the entire defense that it had nothing to do with religion. I always found it really ironic they they wanted to save the Ten Commandments by basing their entire defense on breaking the ninth "command" contained in what they were trying to save.

The Oklahoma ban on Shariah law tried to use the defense that what they really meant was to ban ALL religious law and didn't actually intend to to single out JUST Shariah law (which the judge didn't buy because it specifically mentioned Islam twice, yet nothing of any other religion).

Just look at what is being used for defense in virtually every one of these cases. If the school thought displaying a prayer was all well and good, then why did they claim it wasn't a prayer as a defense? Answer: because THEY KNEW THE LAW!

...so why does the rest of the country have so much of a problem with it?

just as a side note: pastor in Florida threatens to burn a Koran, Muslim's protesting, issuing death threats = evil, bad Muslims. Atheist girl requests removal of an unconstitutional sign (she didn't even ASK to have it burned), and we have Christians protesting, issuing death threats ...heck, florist's wouldn't even deliver flowers for (alleged) fear of safety of their drivers. What does that equal?
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Old 01-28-2012, 08:23 AM
 
16,600 posts, read 14,088,141 times
Reputation: 20568
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville Native View Post
We don't have one, how about something Islamic?
We should just be allowed to paint in equally sized letters underneath any prayers BUT THERE IS NOT GOD SO NEVERMIND.
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Old 01-28-2012, 10:26 AM
 
3,424 posts, read 2,748,914 times
Reputation: 3318
Quote:
Originally Posted by greaemonkey View Post
There are a few issues about this case that really get to me; especially when added in with the Dover trials on "Intelligent Design" the Ten Commandments in the courthouse, and even the more recent law being overturned in Oklahoma "banning Shariah law."

I gather that a lot of the people in this particular forum can actually understand that this was a pretty clear violation of the establishment clause (and I guess more importantly ...case law), but a few other seem to have a few problems. The people that don't seem to understand the constitutional interpretations that have repeatedly held up for over 60 years always seem to overlook one important thing: the defendants KNOW those laws, and did they NOT know the laws, they wouldn't have felt the need to bypass their own ninth commandment in order to make a defense.

In this particular case, the school's defense for keeping the billboard was that it wasn't supposed to BE a prayer, it was just a gift from a former student that just so happened to be prominently displayed. The judge ruled that since it began with "Our Heavenly Father" and ended with "amen" ...then it was a prayer. This really ought to be a no-brainer for everyone. I've looked at this same subject over in the political forum and I'm frankly amazed that so many people can actually believe it wasn't unconstitutional when even the school KNEW it was (otherwise, why did they use a "well, it's not REALLY a prayer" defense?).

The "Ten Commandments in the courthouse" used the defense that the display of them had absolutely nothing to do with religion and was all about historical heritage. Then it had thousands of demonstrators screaming religious persecution while wearing "ten commandment" lapel pins ...which really kind of kills the entire defense that it had nothing to do with religion. I always found it really ironic they they wanted to save the Ten Commandments by basing their entire defense on breaking the ninth "command" contained in what they were trying to save.

The Oklahoma ban on Shariah law tried to use the defense that what they really meant was to ban ALL religious law and didn't actually intend to to single out JUST Shariah law (which the judge didn't buy because it specifically mentioned Islam twice, yet nothing of any other religion).

Just look at what is being used for defense in virtually every one of these cases. If the school thought displaying a prayer was all well and good, then why did they claim it wasn't a prayer as a defense? Answer: because THEY KNEW THE LAW!

...so why does the rest of the country have so much of a problem with it?

just as a side note: pastor in Florida threatens to burn a Koran, Muslim's protesting, issuing death threats = evil, bad Muslims. Atheist girl requests removal of an unconstitutional sign (she didn't even ASK to have it burned), and we have Christians protesting, issuing death threats ...heck, florist's wouldn't even deliver flowers for (alleged) fear of safety of their drivers. What does that equal?
Double standards come naturally with bigots, it would seem.
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Old 01-28-2012, 11:10 AM
 
Location: Dallas
242 posts, read 197,187 times
Reputation: 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by orogenicman View Post
Double standards come naturally with bigots, it would seem.
One would think that eventually some of them might start to consider that maybe there's actually something to that whole "do unto other as you would have them do unto you" thing...
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Old 01-28-2012, 01:04 PM
 
1,114 posts, read 1,026,229 times
Reputation: 453
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdaelectro View Post
We should all be allowed to put whatever our beliefs are, on public property. We all pay for that public property. Put an atheist poster in my house for all I care. Is it really that big a deal?
Tell that to the christian parents who go ballistic over things that conflict with their beliefs such as halloween parties at school (because it's "evil"), or doing yoga during PE. If they get their panties in a wad over things such as this, can you imagine what they would do if the school honored and supported prayers to another god?
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