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Old 01-28-2012, 11:40 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
No, of course not. The public schools should have nothing to do with religion.

I was just comparing our schools in the 1950's to the schools described by SeekerSA.

Thankfully, things have changed a bit since then, though not hardly enough.
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Old 01-28-2012, 11:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
It was a boarding school, meaning we had hostels for the lads from other towns, probably more like your colleges. We had no canteen and our schools were out by 13.00 and we had sports in the afternoons. For day scholars staying far from school, they could opt to stay and have lunch at school with the borders. The grace was as I said led by a prefect (a prefect a student leader in the 6th form elected by the school board or parent teacher association, they usually were academic or sport achievers). Any assembly prayers were recited from a prayer book and not a self made up one.

The weekly religious studies were again optional and say if you were RC, you could opt out with a parents note. My dad's church was a cult and on the admission forms, religion was entered as either non denom or n/a so folk guessed I was an atheist. (prophetic perhaps)

At high school it was similar and there the majority of kids assembled in the gym, Occasionally we had a pot luck preacher that tried to preach to the heathen kids but was usually laughed at when they made silly statements like we are all destined to hell. The group was to big and too mature to still watch movies for an hour. The kids that went with their clergy were mostly catholic, Church of England, some Dutch Reformed (Afrikaans speaking) kids and the few Jews we had with us. The Jewish folk had no schools of their own and there was only a junior school for LDS and a Christian Brother's College and a Convent for the catholic kids, junior and HS. We still had quite a few RC kids in our school as it was a technical school.

As for the bibles, they were a "gift" and we were not required to bring them to school.

It was not teaching a religion more than a tradition handed down. Like I mentioned, the headmaster hated doing it. The culture was not overtly religious. In the then Rhodesia (Zimbabwe) HS was separated by sexes, boys only and girls only, the catholic schools were separated from junior and went from Gr1 to 12 at both their schools. My junior school was coed.

If you ever attended mass, the service is pretty mild by comparison to an evangelical one where folk get a preach attack or sprout out in tongues or have epiphanies (make crap up) The CoE was more of less the same as the RCC in this regard and being a Brit colony, most white folk were pommies. Oddly enough under this system, folk were very tolerant of each other's personal beliefs but TBH, barring a very small number of woos, most kids never discussed religion, you were seen to be strange if you did.

At age 10 or so I was more fluent in the KJV than the headmaster was, I was an anomaly and yet declared for all intents and purposes an atheist by my dad on the admission forms.

In South Africa, the influence was mostly orthodox Dutch Reformed except English schools that were similar to the ones in Rhodesia. Neither made a real issue of religious studies or introduced posters or stuff like chick tracts. The little that happened at assemblies was about it and the focus was still on secular education. Never once was I taught creationism in science or even in history classes. The only time this came up is when we learned of the crusades. As for the pledge of allegiance, we sang god save the queen for awhile but that stopped as we lived in changing times.

In both societies, politicians never ran on any religious slant like in the US, our batcrap crazies were a very small minority. For me it is pretty weird to see politicians in the US making god claims and I never heard god bless (country) in speeches, more like ended off with god save the queen.

In both societies it was like an unwritten rule, you do not discuss politics or religion in the public sphere and in the workplace, folk did not ask you what church you went to or what your beliefs were. For all intents and purposes, we were pretty much all heathen.

We never had a school prayer like something with the school name in mind and seeing folk pray before a sporting event was something I only saw in SA.

The honouring of the queen who is CoE is by inference, you "adopted" their creeds but even so, like in England, the church has little to no influence any more. Blue laws are all but gone. Malls are open 7 days a week and the only businesses that do not operate on Sundays are ones like travel agencies and banks.
I went to Catholic school for nine years, but insisted on being taken out of it my sophmore year, much to the chagrine of my Catholic mother, whom I nevertheless loved very much. The nuns and some of the lay teachers at my school were verbally and physically very abusive, though the priests and brothers definitely were not. But frankly, I never understood why the priests let the nuns get away with some of the crap they did. It is hard to believe that they didn't know what was going on.
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Old 01-29-2012, 12:05 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
There is no right to freedom FROM religion . . . only freedom OF religion. Ascribing government establishment of religion to such mundane and parochial issues (especially in education . . . which should not be government-run anyway) is just grandstanding and rabble-rousing. Pretending to elevate such nonsense to Constitutional issues perverts the courts and the judges who must rule on them, and takes respect and stature away from serious Constitutional issues by parodying the Constitution. The absurdity of equating mere feelings within a human being to actual violations and infringements on rights is worse than a parody . . . it belittles the entire concept of rights violations. Political correctness has fostered this perversion of our freedoms and has been the single most powerful movement toward a "thought police state."
Our founding fathers didnt want to respect religion, neither does this girl.
freedom of religion implies freedom to be a person whose "religion" says there is no Gods and we should't pretend that they exist with shallow public displays of theist spoilery. That sign doesn't need to be there to remind this girl that those around her feel she "doesn't belong."
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Old 01-29-2012, 05:08 AM
 
Location: South Africa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orogenicman View Post
I went to Catholic school for nine years, but insisted on being taken out of it my sophmore year, much to the chagrine of my Catholic mother, whom I nevertheless loved very much. The nuns and some of the lay teachers at my school were verbally and physically very abusive, though the priests and brothers definitely were not. But frankly, I never understood why the priests let the nuns get away with some of the crap they did. It is hard to believe that they didn't know what was going on.
The only contact I had with the boys catholic school was in sporting events. Not sure if they had nuns as teachers, TMK the teachers were all male and visa versa for the convent.

Even with the public schools, the splitting up of the sexes during puberty, the girls were still traditionally prepared for motherhood and and as a wife to be. The lads had cadets so we were being prepared for war and the army conscription that followed school. All schools wore uniforms and the girls uniforms deliberately designed to hide their femininity, pretty much a British Victorian hold over from earlier years.
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Old 01-29-2012, 12:41 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
The only contact I had with the boys catholic school was in sporting events. Not sure if they had nuns as teachers, TMK the teachers were all male and visa versa for the convent.

Even with the public schools, the splitting up of the sexes during puberty, the girls were still traditionally prepared for motherhood and and as a wife to be. The lads had cadets so we were being prepared for war and the army conscription that followed school. All schools wore uniforms and the girls uniforms deliberately designed to hide their femininity, pretty much a British Victorian hold over from earlier years.
No doubt.

My elementary school had both sexes. My freshman year I went to an all male highschool and had all male instructors, but left after that one year to go to public school. The publics schools had both sexes.
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Old 01-29-2012, 12:56 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
My dad's church was a cult
Please tell us more about this, Seeker.

What was the cult your dad associated with? Was it unique to South Africa or was it related to cults in other countries? Has it become descredited in the last few years, or has it become stronger than ever?
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Old 01-29-2012, 08:38 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orogenicman View Post
Public schools are, in fact, financed by State and Federal funds. Not only are they financed by the government, the buildings themselvess are government buildings. The only way you don't know this is if you've been asleep your entire life.
Public funding does not make them part of the governance of our society.
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Old 01-29-2012, 08:44 PM
 
40,099 posts, read 26,767,323 times
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Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
Our founding fathers didnt want to respect religion, neither does this girl.
The establishment clause has nothing to do with respecting religion . . . just making no laws respecting (i.e., regarding) religion and selecting one as the State religion.
Quote:
freedom of religion implies freedom to be a person whose "religion" says there is no Gods and we should't pretend that they exist with shallow public displays of theist spoilery. That sign doesn't need to be there to remind this girl that those around her feel she "doesn't belong."
Freedom OF religion does not mean freedom FROM religion and what this girl feels or doesn't feel is irrelevant.
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Old 01-29-2012, 08:53 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Public funding does not make them part of the governance of our society.
In fact, because they receive Federal funds, they must follow federal law, aka, the Constitution. Are you suggesting that our schools are above the law?
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Old 01-29-2012, 08:55 PM
 
3,424 posts, read 2,749,324 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The establishment clause has nothing to do with respecting religion . . . just making no laws respecting (i.e., regarding) religion and selecting one as the State religion.Freedom OF religion does not mean freedom FROM religion and what this girl feels or doesn't feel is irrelevant.
The courts disagrees with you. But you knew that already.

Last edited by orogenicman; 01-29-2012 at 09:06 PM..
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