Why do Cristians need fear to pass on knowledge, goodwill and morality found in the bible? (punishment, Christ)

[Nozzferrahhtoo]

Originally Posted by Werone

My point is that there are universal truths from the bible. Like don't steal and respect your neighbor.

I am not sure there are such "universal truths". If there was this would be suggestive of an objective morality of which we have currently no evidence.

Further I see no reason to think such morality is, as you said, "from" the bible but rather it was from people and then put INTO the bible.

There is quite a difference between morality coming from the bible and morality having been written into it.

[purehuman]

I agree with the AshevilleNative....it's that maintained fear of the unknown that gives religion its power....I don't consider myself "religious"..but I have brought up 4 children, and with respect and love...I have passed on knowledge..goodwill towards others...and of course morality...all WITHOUT fear.

[nana053]

There is actually no reason to believe that there is much morality in the Bible at all. While there were a few good principles set down, a great deal is not what I consider ethical or moral.

Morality...Bible God Style

[Werone]

Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo

I am not sure there are such "universal truths". If there was this would be suggestive of an objective morality of which we have currently no evidence.

Further I see no reason to think such morality is, as you said, "from" the bible but rather it was from people and then put INTO the bible.

A universal truth is a truth that is repeatable and tested, regardless of physics, and can be publicly verifiable, stand the test of time and question. I would consider any established truth as previously described, that stands to be tested, and they should all be continuously tested, as a universal truth.

We can agree on some basic human-centric moral principles such as "Though shall not kill human beings". We could argue that as objective morality for many reasons, the main one being that without human consciousness your life and mine would have no more meaning than all the animals with only instinctual and learned behaviors attributed to the animals they have direct contact with. We have the privelege to access human consciousness as an aggregate, because of information and history, being passed down in many mediums.

Morality is human morality, for we are a part of human consciousness. The bible is written by man, no doubt about that.

[Werone]

Originally Posted by nana053

There is actually no reason to believe that there is much morality in the Bible at all. While there were a few good principles set down, a great deal is not what I consider ethical or moral.

Morality...Bible God Style

You do agree that there is some. That is my point. There are those that argue and fall back on the morality and universally accepted "good" in the bible, and I ask then why not promote those good things without worrying about the label to be granted access to "the promise land"?

[Werone]

Originally Posted by purehuman

I agree with the AshevilleNative....it's that maintained fear of the unknown that gives religion its power....I don't consider myself "religious"..but I have brought up 4 children, and with respect and love...I have passed on knowledge..goodwill towards others...and of course morality...all WITHOUT fear.

I cannot emphasize that enough. You dont need a label, a book and fear of eternal damnation to be a great person!

[Nozzferrahhtoo]

Originally Posted by Werone

A universal truth is a truth that is repeatable and tested, regardless of physics, and can be publicly verifiable, stand the test of time and question.

Any yet no "moral" fits that description so I am unsure as to why you bring it up here.

Originally Posted by Werone

We can agree on some basic human-centric moral principles such as "Though shall not kill human beings". We could argue that as objective morality for many reasons

Consensus and objective are not synonymous, why pretend they are? Just because in a variety of cherry picked cases you get most people (and it is always most, never all) to agree on a moral principle that does not mean it is objective.

[Werone]

Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo

Any yet no "moral" fits that description so I am unsure as to why you bring it up here.

I wrote that in order to judge whether we could agree on that definition.

Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo

Consensus and objective are not synonymous, why pretend they are? Just because in a variety of cherry picked cases you get most people (and it is always most, never all) to agree on a moral principle that does not mean it is objective.

You can get most people to agree on data driven facts, and some of those facts belong to the moral consciousness of the human masses. What use is morality without the human consciousness? Would the definition of "Moral" even be an issue without us? It seems that the term "Objective Morality" is a paradox.

[Mightyqueen801]

Religion SHOULDN'T need fear to pass on knowledge, goodwill and morality found in the Bible (or elsewhere). It's only when the religion morphs out of a purely spiritual belief of a person or group of persons into an organized social or political entity and creates an agenda that it needs to use fear. At some point passing on knowledge, goodwill and morality is no longer the goal; power is, and then it needs fear because it needs to grow in order to attain/retain power.

[Werone]

Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801

Religion SHOULDN'T need fear to pass on knowledge, goodwill and morality found in the Bible (or elsewhere). It's only when the religion morphs out of a purely spiritual belief of a person or group of persons into an organized social or political entity and creates an agenda that it needs to use fear. At some point passing on knowledge, goodwill and morality is no longer the goal; power is, and then it needs fear because it needs to grow in order to attain/retain power.

I think your statement is logical. I do not understand the spiritual statement, but maybe someone can explain that to me in the future. Spirituality to me seems to be based on emotion, or maybe on the social affinity of humans, I am really not sure.