What's wrong with Atheism? (Jesus, Mormons, preacher, after life)
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Perhaps you're right, but I do not think atheism is a feasible alternative.
Eventually, I feel it will lead to our destruction. Unfortunately, there is a possibility that a single individual could have the capability for destruction far greater than we could have ever imagined.
But this does not follow contemporary western scientific thought. I can only hope it is all a lie.
That much is obvious since we're bantering back and forth on 2 threads about it. But like everyone is trying to tell you, your perception of atheism as a threat is misguided because you don't understand atheism. We are not what you think we are.
This might prove to be difficult because as heathen unbelievers we are constantly defending our perspectives against the religious folks and have generally arrived at the atheist perspective after a great deal of study and personal soul-searching.
But atheists should be all-to-aware of the imperfect nature of the universe, and atheism itself is no different.
So what bothers or leaves you unsettled about atheism? Maybe we can all talk about it and work on clearing things up.
Here's my main issue with Atheism:
Atheism is developing it's own dogma and preconceptions, plus a reputation for coming to premature conclusions and being closed-minded which makes me leery to identify with it.
In my mind, Atheism should begin and end with one question: Do you believe in a supreme being(s) who created everything (including you) or do you not. Everything else should be up for grabs.
I don't see a problem with an atheist believing in some form of afterlife for example, or "magic" or spirituality or whatever. They may be wrong, but as long as they don't believe someone is running the show, they should be "part of the club"
I believe humanity has hardly scratched the surface of all there is to know in the universe and it is completely ridiculous to conclude everything that can't be put in the proverbial test tube doesn't exist. Science has already proven that just isn't the case... just look into Quantum Mechanics for example.
And while it all may turn out to be a bunch of hooey, it's too early to completely throw out all the "spiritual and supernatural" aspects of the human experience that have been part of human life for tens of thousands of years...we should at least try to consider it from new perspectives first.
Your thoughts?
Firstly, atheism is the rejection of theism. Asking me to accept absurd claims without evidence is beyond unreasonable.
What I believe is separate to my atheism.
I would rather be called reasonist or a humanist, because then it actually describes what I believe.
Firstly, atheism is the rejection of theism. Asking me to accept absurd claims without evidence is beyond unreasonable.
What I believe is separate to my atheism.
I would rather be called reasonist or a humanist, because then it actually describes what I believe.
Even the absurd can turn out to be true on occasion. My favorite example is quantum physics, but it's far from the only thing humanity wants to reject but can't because new scientific evidence or methodology comes about, perfectly and elegantly explains something and otherwise makes a bulletproof case.
In a universe not made for man, there will certainly be things not easily comprehendable by the human mind, especially when man is currently bound to such a narrow perspective.
Of course, we don't want to keep a mind so open that our brain falls out, but I think atheists tend to fall too close to the opposite extreme.
This might prove to be difficult because as heathen unbelievers we are constantly defending our perspectives against the religious folks and have generally arrived at the atheist perspective after a great deal of study and personal soul-searching.
But atheists should be all-to-aware of the imperfect nature of the universe, and atheism itself is no different.
So what bothers or leaves you unsettled about atheism? Maybe we can all talk about it and work on clearing things up.
Here's my main issue with Atheism:
Atheism is developing it's own dogma and preconceptions, plus a reputation for coming to premature conclusions and being closed-minded which makes me leery to identify with it.
In my mind, Atheism should begin and end with one question: Do you believe in a supreme being(s) who created everything (including you) or do you not. Everything else should be up for grabs.
.....
Your "one question" is correct. There is no atheist dogma, there is nothing atheists have in common beyond that one disbelief, closed-mindedness is irrelevant to the belief or non-belief in any god(s). There is no atheist theology, ritual, set of truths, holy books, or anything else. Atheist organizations only account for a small fraction of atheists.
Therefore, all generalizations made about atheists are, by definition, wrong. The term means only one thing; no belief in any god(s).
Your "one question" is correct. There is no atheist dogma, there is nothing atheists have in common beyond that one disbelief, closed-mindedness is irrelevant to the belief or non-belief in any god(s). There is no atheist theology, ritual, set of truths, holy books, or anything else. Atheist organizations only account for a small fraction of atheists.
Therefore, all generalizations made about atheists are, by definition, wrong. The term means only one thing; no belief in any god(s).
They can never just get together and say: "yep, we don't believe in a god, lets all go home!"
Nope, they have to go making up "atheist creed" mission statements, get together to give each other hugs and ruminate on stuff they don't like, have weekly "support meetings", march on the capital, order billboard space, sabre-rattle with people who don't believe as they do and generally behave just like a church, just with a different belief system.
I hear what you say, Chango, but to say 'We don't believe in God -let's all go home' would suit the Theists perfectly. It would hand the fundies, posters of Commandments in courthouses and introducers of Creationism in the science - class the game in a Box. Tied up with pink ribbon.
Thus, dangers and appearances of imitating churches or religions notwithstanding, organization is needed. When the job is done, organized atheism will disappear as totally as the organizations for the eradication of pink unicorns.
I hear what you say, Chango, but to say 'We don't believe in God -let's all go home' would suit the Theists perfectly. It would hand the fundies, posters of Commandments in courthouses and introducers of Creationism in the science - class the game in a Box. Tied up with pink ribbon.
Thus, dangers and appearances of imitating churches or religions notwithstanding, organization is needed. When the job is done, organized atheism will disappear as totally as the organizations for the eradication of pink unicorns.
I get that too, but there is a HUGE risk in becoming the very evil you intend to defeat. It really does bother me deeply, and I still think religion will eventually go away on it's own... though probably not in our lifetimes.
The problem is that some people want it NOW when they just aren't gonna get it. It's like trying to teach a 10 year old how to drive a car responsibly... humanity in general just isn't grown up enough to "abandon childish things" and "take the wheel" of their own destiny just yet.
We "early birds" should be helping the rest of humanity "grow up", but "fighting children" at their level by creating an anti-church isn't gonna help accomplish that.
They can never just get together and say: "yep, we don't believe in a god, lets all go home!"
Nope, they have to go making up "atheist creed" mission statements, get together to give each other hugs and ruminate on stuff they don't like, have weekly "support meetings", march on the capital, order billboard space, sabre-rattle with people who don't believe as they do and generally behave just like a church, just with a different belief system.
Yet without any organization, or very little, the numbers of atheists are growing despite the efforts and fear tactics of the theists. The internet and the readily easy access to information, is generating the greatest threat that religion faces.
There would be no problem if the theists just got together and say: "yep, we do believe in a god, let's all go home!", but they have to plan and scheme to impose that belief into every aspect of everyone life.
I don't collect stamps so I don't go to Philatelic Society meetings.
I get that too, but there is a HUGE risk in becoming the very evil you intend to defeat. It really does bother me deeply, and I still think religion will eventually go away on it's own... though probably not in our lifetimes.
The problem is that some people want it NOW when they just aren't gonna get it. It's like trying to teach a 10 year old how to drive a car responsibly... humanity in general just isn't grown up enough to "abandon childish things" and "take the wheel" of their own destiny just yet.
We "early birds" should be helping the rest of humanity "grow up", but "fighting children" at their level by creating an anti-church isn't gonna help accomplish that.
I agree. I can see how the theist talk of atheist Fundamentalism (which term they misuse as comprehensively as they misuse 'evolution') strikes a chord. That's why I keep looking ahead to possible further developments and responsibilities for when atheism becomes more than a bunch of noisy materialists. In a very real sense if humanity votes with its brains to remove religion from it present position of mentoring authority and guide then we could go on with the system we have now -with all its problems.
We could manage -but it would be a shame to lose the opportunity to do better and understand the instincts that drive us and -not suppress them like a lot of barely controlled Vulcans - but understand them and not let them drive us to acts of harm to others. We don't need or want a 'Church' of atheism - we want a rational worldview. But if we don't understand the religious instinct and how it uses rites and traditions to underpin authority without it having to give better reasons than 'Deus vult' then we could -as you fear -turn into some sort of secularist religion. Humans have a remarkable ingenuity for doing daft things like that.
This might prove to be difficult because as heathen unbelievers we are constantly defending our perspectives against the religious folks and have generally arrived at the atheist perspective after a great deal of study and personal soul-searching.
But atheists should be all-to-aware of the imperfect nature of the universe, and atheism itself is no different.
So what bothers or leaves you unsettled about atheism? Maybe we can all talk about it and work on clearing things up.
Here's my main issue with Atheism:
Atheism is developing it's own dogma and preconceptions, plus a reputation for coming to premature conclusions and being closed-minded which makes me leery to identify with it.
In my mind, Atheism should begin and end with one question: Do you believe in a supreme being(s) who created everything (including you) or do you not. Everything else should be up for grabs.
I don't see a problem with an atheist believing in some form of afterlife for example, or "magic" or spirituality or whatever. They may be wrong, but as long as they don't believe someone is running the show, they should be "part of the club"
I believe humanity has hardly scratched the surface of all there is to know in the universe and it is completely ridiculous to conclude everything that can't be put in the proverbial test tube doesn't exist. Science has already proven that just isn't the case... just look into Quantum Mechanics for example.
And while it all may turn out to be a bunch of hooey, it's too early to completely throw out all the "spiritual and supernatural" aspects of the human experience that have been part of human life for tens of thousands of years...we should at least try to consider it from new perspectives first.
Your thoughts?
I don't really see where you're coming from. My atheism is the same as my not playing sports is a sport, my not writing a book is literature etc.
Now my skepticism and free thought might bring me into conflict with the religious or ghost believers or what have you but that is not my "atheism".
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
I hear what you say, Chango, but to say 'We don't believe in God -let's all go home' would suit the Theists perfectly. It would hand the fundies, posters of Commandments in courthouses and introducers of Creationism in the science - class the game in a Box. Tied up with pink ribbon.
Thus, dangers and appearances of imitating churches or religions notwithstanding, organization is needed. When the job is done, organized atheism will disappear as totally as the organizations for the eradication of pink unicorns.
But this isn't "atheism". If you simply are a secularist like many deists and also many theists are than you can fight the increasing presence of religion in government.
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we are constantly defending our perspectives against the religious folks and have generally arrived at the atheist perspective after a great deal of study and personal soul-searching.
