The Jewish view on Athiests (Christians, America, preach, atheist)

[AREQUIPA]

Nice one, Nozz. 'This is about being Jewish, not about being religious'.

We might pinch that for a joke about two Europeans who deconverted and declared themselves atheist. Then around mid December one of them finds the other decorating his tree and hanging up paper - chains....

[nezlie]

Originally Posted by theflipflop

OK, I know you don't need nor have you asked for my blessing (for those of you who don't know me, I'm a black hat wearing Orthodox Jew), but Jews do not have any problem with athiests being athiests. And both religious and non-religious Jews would agree on this point.

You folks are all set. Live a good life. Treat your fellow man with kindness and respect. Do the right thing. If you don't have a "book" to tell you what the right thing is, ask your parents. Ask somebody you respect.

And if there is a G-d, I can assure you He is smart enough to know good from bad, and He'll give you the benefit of the doubt when it is your time to be judged. You will be judged by the totality of your deeds on this earth. You will not be judged by your creed. Talk is cheap, but the proof is in the pudding (your actions). And if you are right and there is not a G-d, then you've lost nothing by leading a life dedicated to treating others with respect and kindness.

Anyone who comes to tell you otherwise, I would be suspect of their likelihood in being judged similarly favorably.

I don't understand all the need for being judged. It seems like just something to create fear and guilt. Will my dog or the trees or the flowers in the garden also be judged?

I think only people judge others.

[AREQUIPA]

Originally Posted by nezlie

.. Will my dog or the trees or the flowers in the garden also be judged?...

It'd be rough if those who failed to pick up a medal at Crufts or the Chelsea flower show ended up in the fiery pit...

[theflipflop]

Originally Posted by hiker45

Would you be upset if your parents, spouse, or children suddenly told you they had become Atheists?

How about if they became born-again Christians?

Or Muslims?

I would be ok if my kids or family announced they were athiest. Would it be my preference, of course not. The Jewish belief in G-d is one thing that has kept us as a people. When a Jew becomes an athiest (assuming he remains one), then it's essentially a guarantee in a generation or two, their offspring will cease to be Jewish. That would be sad.

Might be worth saying here now, that I was essentially a Jewish athiest until my early 20s. The whole G-d story just seemed implausable to me (although ironically when i was 8 years old, I prayed to G-d during little league baseball games that no fly balls would come my way, since I couldn't catch a fly ball). I didn't "find" G-d until my mid 20s. I didn't become religious until my 30s. But i was born Jewish.

Now if they announced they were going to become a Chrstian, that would not be something i could not live with. I would fight that decision every day of my life. For a jew to become an athiest, all they have to do is live a moral life, and they are assured a place in Olam Haba. Should as Jew choose to become a Chrstian, they have committed suicide with thier neshama (Jewish soul). Not acceptable. Becoming a Muslim would be infinitly better than becoming a Chrstian, since at least the Muslims pray to the same G-d I do (and just one G-d and no idols).

[Fillmont]

Originally Posted by theflipflop

I would be ok if my kids or family announced they were athiest. Would it be my preference, of course not. The Jewish belief in G-d is one thing that has kept us as a people. When a Jew becomes an athiest (assuming he remains one), then it's essentially a guarantee in a generation or two, their offspring will cease to be Jewish. That would be sad.

Might be worth saying here now, that I was essentially a Jewish athiest until my early 20s. The whole G-d story just seemed implausable to me (although ironically when i was 8 years old, I prayed to G-d during little league baseball games that no fly balls would come my way, since I couldn't catch a fly ball). I didn't "find" G-d until my mid 20s. I didn't become religious until my 30s. But i was born Jewish.

Now if they announced they were going to become a Chrstian, that would not be something i could not live with. I would fight that decision every day of my life. For a jew to become an athiest, all they have to do is live a moral life, and they are assured a place in Olam Haba. Should as Jew choose to become a Chrstian, they have committed suicide with thier neshama (Jewish soul). Not acceptable. Becoming a Muslim would be infinitly better than becoming a Chrstian, since at least the Muslims pray to the same G-d I do (and just one G-d and no idols).

Just a quick followup: what if a family member becomes something unrelated to Abrahamic faiths? Hindu or Pagan, for instance? Would that be essentially the same as becoming a Christian in your eyes, for in both there would be worship of an unrelated god or gods?

And thanks for starting the thread. You and I have established that we don't much agree on anything theologically, but I do respect your right to believe and live as you do, and am very much pleased that you feel the same way. High five!

[theflipflop]

Originally Posted by NateHevens

Thank you, theflipflop.

I actually still call myself Jewish because I consider myself part of the Jewish culture/heritage, and I don't feel it's a contradiction because Judaism is so much more than just a religion.

And in fact, yes, one of the things I like about Judaism is that the Jewish view of judgement is that it's based on works, not necessarily on faith.

That said, there are "evangelical Jews". Consider the Haredi in Israel, for example, who attempted to pass a measure that would give them exclusive rights to define who is and who is not a Jew. And what about the fanatics from Israel involved in the illegal expansion/colonization issues that are talked about right now going on in the Middle East? In fact, Israel is awash with almost as many stories about fanatic Jews as we in the States are about fanatic Christians.

The biggest difference is, with perhaps one or two exceptions, Jews don't proselytize. For the most part, Jews leave well enough alone. And they are more than happy to engage in an honest, revealing debate. I hate fanaticism in all its forms, yet my favorite sparring partner after I came out as an atheist was an Orthodox Rabbi in Georgia... I actually managed to convince him to except evolution (he was a preaching Creationist before0hand [Old-Earth Creationist, however]... and I was there when he gave a sermon about how he was wrong and science was right about evolution... and was shocked to find his congregation agree with him, as I expected grumbles and gasps), and, in turn, he pacified my anti-theism and convinced me to look at religion just like I did and do the rest of life: in shades of grey.

The great thing about Judaism is that, again with one or two exceptions, education is highly valued. It may be a bit of an appeal to authority to point out that Albert Einstein was a member of the Jewish nation (even if he professed a Pandeistic view of God), and that Jews are perhaps the most represented group amongst the Nobel Prize winners, but it also makes my point. One has to admire that commitment to education, understanding, and, yes, science.

Judaism is, without a doubt, the most mature of the Abrahamic religions. Granted, it's mainly because Judaism is the oldest, but it's also because Judaism has gone through the worst. Perhaps I'm reaching, here, but I think it can be safely said that Christians and Muslims will never experience anything like what the Jews went through from the Crusades to the 1940's, and, sometimes, still today. We (and yes, I am purposefully including myself, as I am a proud member of the Jewish nation) went through a lot as a nation, and we continue to do so.

I think it's possible that Christianity and Islam will never mature the way Judaism has. I think part of it is because they will never experienced what the Jews have experienced, but I think it may also be because there won't be enough time. In the cultural zeitgeist (NOT THE CONSPIRACY MOVEMENT!), things change, including religion. Eventually, the Abrahamic religions will die out, giving way either to other religions or more deistic philosophies (hate to say it, but atheism won't take hold until after forms of deism have reigned for a while... the God Hypothesis has to be phased out slowly, in stages... ). I think Judaism may be the only of the three to survive because it is not just a religion. When our current religious culture finally does die (as it inevitably will), Christianity and Islam will live on through historical documents and records, but I think Judaism will also live on through its people. The religious aspect may die, but I don't think the culture will die.

But anyways... that's my (admittedly biased) take (seeing as I grew up Jewish and all that).

Nate, your post hits too many points for me to concisely comment on. But as an Athiest, if your mother and grandmother are Jews, then you too remain Jewish, just with an "Athiest outlook" on life. In terms of Jews (Chareidi Jews, you mention) defining who is Jewish and who is not, well somebody has to. In truth, all Jews engage in this practice. It's just that less religious Jews use their opinions, or the "norms of the day" to define who is Jewish, and religious Jews use the Torah as their guide. That's very consistent with how Torah Jews make ALL decisions. So I'm not sure what the complaint is.

In terms of the long part of your post about Judaism (and other religions) fading away. Well, clearly I don't see that. This is a good time to post a very famous Mark Twain quote:

”...If statistics are right, the Jews constitute but one percent of the human race. It suggests a nebulous dim puff of stardust lost in the blaze of the Milky way. properly, the Jew ought hardly to be heard of, but he is heard of, has always been heard of. He is as prominent on the planet as any other people, and his commercial importance is extravagantly out of proportion to the smallness of his bulk. His contributions to the world’s list of great names in literature, science, art, music, finance, medicine, and abstruse learning are also away out of proportion to the weakness of his numbers. He has made a marvelous fight in this world, in all the ages; and had done it with his hands tied behind him. He could be vain of himself, and be excused for it.

The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away; the Greek and the Roman followed; and made a vast noise, and they are gone; other people have sprung up and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out, and they sit in twilight now, or have vanished. The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind. All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?”

- Mark Twain
(“Concerning The Jews,” Harper’s Magazine, 1899)

[In God We Trust]

Originally Posted by theflipflop

And if there is a G-d, .

An Orthodox Jew is 100% certain that God exist. It seems like you are not sure if God exist or not
You sound more like an Agnostic or secular Jew. You said the same thing on an another thread "If God exist".

[theflipflop]

Originally Posted by Fillmont

Just a quick followup: what if a family member becomes something unrelated to Abrahamic faiths? Hindu or Pagan, for instance? Would that be essentially the same as becoming a Christian in your eyes, for in both there would be worship of an unrelated god or gods?

And thanks for starting the thread. You and I have established that we don't much agree on anything theologically, but I do respect your right to believe and live as you do, and am very much pleased that you feel the same way. High five!

It's a tougher question you pose, for sure. It's also such an unusual thing for a Jew to become a Hindu, although I actually know one who has. All I can say, is at least the Hindu (as far as I know) do not proselytize. I fear, however, that idol worship is an intrinsic part of their religion (and Jews are not cool with idol worship). I could be wrong.

The bottom line, is obviously i want my kids to be Torah observant Jews. Anything else is just a level of disappointment to me. The least bad would be if they chose to be unreligious Jews. Then all the other religions (athiesm included) come in levels after that.

Now that being said, this only applies to my own children and family. If Fillmont wants to be an athiest, I one million percent respect and support your right to do so. If "In G-d We Trust" wants to be a Chrstian, I respect that right as well, and those of you who have seen my postings here at C-D know that the Jews believe Chrstians also have a share of Olam Haba (the world to Come) - as do athiests. The only person cut off from Olam Haba is the Jew who engages in any form of idol worship - and Chrstianity and Hinduism, I believe, fall into that category.

(Interestingly, there's much discussion in the Talmud on which religions enagage in idol worship. The conclusion is that Chrstians practicing their religion are not engaging in idol worship, but Jews who engage in any form of Jesus belief are indeed engaging in idol worship. The Talmud also claims that Muslim do not engage in idol worship and that they pray to the same G-d we jews do)

[theflipflop]

Originally Posted by In God We Trust

An Orthodox Jew is 100% certain that God exist. It seems like you are not sure if God exist or not
You sound more like an Agnostic or secular Jew. You said the same thing on an another thread "If God exist".

I can assure you that I believe with perfect faith that hashem exists, and that He controls every day events in the world and in my life. In the posts you are referencing, I'm simply making every attempt to be respectful in my manner of speech to the athiests in this forum. This is THEIR forum. So I'm writing with a style that includes the possibility that there is no G-d, to be respectful of their views. While I believe 100% that there is a single G-d, I'd be a maniac if I didn't account for the fact that I could be wrong.

[theflipflop]

Originally Posted by nezlie

I don't understand all the need for being judged. It seems like just something to create fear and guilt. Will my dog or the trees or the flowers in the garden also be judged?

I think only people judge others.

nezlie, your question is a good one, and I can surely see why you asked it. but if you re-read my post you were referencing, you'll see that it all refers to Hashem judging people, and not people judging people. In shul and in my community, I constantly hear the refrain that who are we mere mortals to judge anybody for anything. As a matter of fact, we Jews have a commandment to be "Dan L'kaf Z'chus," which roughly translates to give your fellow man the benefit of the doubt.

I have a good example of being dan l'kaf z'chus. Recently, I noticed on my Facebook feed that a very pious Jew I know in my neighborhood - his name came up on the FB feed saying he viewed a video that was, to say the least, not where a frum yid should be browsing on the internet. I decided it was probably a mistake. Maybe he accidentally clicked a link. Maybe somebody got on his computer and did so. A week later, I saw it happen again. Since he's a good friend, and this was a big public thing, I decided to call him and warn him on what I saw. I started the conversation with: "hey buddy, i think your FaceBook account has been hacked. Here's what I saw..."

Later that day, he called me back after further investigation and he discovered that not only was his FB account hacked, but so was his work website and the blog he ran. He has a well known enemy ( a rival shop owner), and after some investigating, he learned that the IP address associated with much of that hacking was the son of his "enemy."

As bad as it looked that he was browsing pornography on the internet, my Torah foundation forced me to be dan l'kaf z'chus (give him the benefit of the doubt and not judge him), and surely that proved to be correct.

The Jewish view is that we mere mortals have no right to judge. Only Hashem does. Since athiests do not believe in hashem, I can see why you would think my post shows me the Jew being the judgemental one. But i assure you that's not my job to judge. And any jew who is doing so, is making a mistake.